Was the Heresy Inevitable? Could the Emperor have won?

[tdemayo]

There are a lot of threads on the forum about the Primarchs, the mistakes the Emperor made in handling them, and in trying to keep the existence of Chaos mostly secret.

 

This begs the larger question: Was the Heresy inevitable, in some form, given the metaphysics of the 40k universe? Could the Emperor have succeeded in creating a lasting golden age, free of Chaos, if he'd just made better decisions?

 

What do people think?

 

I'm tending more and more to the view that the Emperor was doomed from the start. That ever since the development of intelligent beings (especially humans) to fuel the darkening of the Warp and the growth of the Chaos Gods, there has been an inevitable feedback loop between men's evil desires and the power of Chaos. Eventually, like ink spreading in water, warpsace and realspace will eventually merge. Individual civilizations and figures, like the Emperor, might slow or halt this development, but are incapable of stopping it.

 

In this view, Chaos would have found some way to undermine the Emperor whatever he did. If certain Primarchs had resisted, others would have fallen. If all had remained true, Chaos would have corrupted Army officers, or Malacador, or found some other way to break the Emperor.

 

Indeed, I wonder if perhaps the Emperor made the mistakes he did precisely because he was trapped by his own nature. As an empodiment of humanity's drive for order, and a belief in its own virtues, he could NOT have overlooked the flaws in his sons, or tried to build an empire, or fatally underestimated Chaos.

 

A rather depressing thought, really.

 

(If this thread is too offtopic, I apologize.)

[Marshal Loss]

This is a question that has been asked many times before and may yet be answered within 300 years when BL finish their accounts of the Horus Heresy

 

One gets the sense that the Emperor had to get his plans to a certain point to solidify them against Chaos - the Webway  - but never quite got there. Additionally, I don't totally subscribe to the theory that if Horus hadn't fallen, another would take his place, because he was uniquely suited to the mantle of Warmaster and there is perhaps no other who could have mobilised as much of the Imperium in the way he did in treachery.

 

Until we learn more about the Emperor's motivations and thoughts behind his major decisions and plans (if we ever do) it's all pure conjecture.

[Leonite]

I personally believe that... well, circumstances were just too set against them. Yes, the Emperor can be said to have made mistakes that helped (censoring Lorgar so harshly, teleporting Angron away instead of simply teleporting down to help, not telling Magnus that yes I know you're talking to a blue bird, and he's not got the best things in mind for you.) and that some Primarchs didn't help their own case (Magnus, Mortarion, Cruze...) or each other's (Aside from Lorgar, Dorn and Perturabo come to mind as does the Nikea council)

 

Now, do I believe that the heresy could've been mitigated? A little maybe. Angron and Perturabo are the biggest there, but at the same time the Heresy would've happened if only on a smaller scale. Now, had someone killed Erebus and Kor Phaneon and thrown them out the nearest air lock...

[Ordo Machinum]

Was the Heresy inevitable? Yes

Could the Emperor have won? He is winning.

 

Were his Primarch sons really taken from him by surprise? He knew of the powers he was attempting to thwart. He would have known his sons would be a shining bunch of bait to these chaotic forces. Here is a heretical thought: He allowed them to be taken.

 

All part of the plan. The long game.

 

With the Emperor being as long lived as He was... emerging far back in Ancient Terra's past...

 

Ever wonder how the world was brought into it's Age of Strife in the first place? It certainly set the stage for the Emperor to "appear" as humanity's savior. Do you innocently think He didn't push the big button to bring humanity into a more compliant manageable state?

 

Sure He would use them as His generals to lead His Great Crusade. Just as He used His own "Thunder Warriors" to unify Terra. And we know how He dealt with them when the steps toward His goal of unification had been achieved.

 

The Emperor cast His dice and let them fall where they would. His own death would not and could not change His plans. He obviously loves a challenge.

 

So, after 10,000 years of drawing Chaos out into constant battle... it appears the end times are near.... or are they?

 

Reality and Chaos realms colliding? Sure. What better way to break them? Better to drain them of their power as humanity and chaos, like positive and negative particles, try to annihilate each other. The Emperor's future will extend beyond this grim dark future. Whether there will be many others around to see it...?

 

He'll rebuild His vision of humanity upon the ashes of the old.

 

Have faith in Him. He has a plan. He's done it before. He'll do it again.

[Marshal Rohr]

Nothing is inevitable. All great events are generally products of miscalculation.

[Ordo Machinum]

A 30,000 year old tactician (by the Heresy-era) should be able to calculate for his own probabilities of miscalculation. He should know himself pretty well by the time of the Heresy at least. Sort of like psycho-history of the Asimov Foundation series. Just with more bolters.

 

The Emperor cannot know all, but enough to know how probabilities can be shifted.

[Conn Eremon]

Ever wonder how the world was brought into it's Age of Strife in the first place?

Eldar.

[Wade Garrett]

The Emperor cannot know all, but enough to know how probabilities can be shifted.

And then it turns out that Tzeencht planned for those shifts from the very beginning.

[Conn Eremon]

 

The Emperor cannot know all, but enough to know how probabilities can be shifted.

And then it turns out that Tzeencht planned for those shifts from the very beginning.

 

 

And planned how to stop his plans from being planned into plans.

[tdemayo]

I find this theory somewhat less than convincing.

 

"Now that I have been reduced to a withered corpse on life support for 10,000 years and my armies are losing on all fronts --- I have them RIGHT where I want them!!!"

 

Was the Heresy inevitable? Yes

Could the Emperor have won? He is winning.

 

Were his Primarch sons really taken from him by surprise? He knew of the powers he was attempting to thwart. He would have known his sons would be a shining bunch of bait to these chaotic forces. Here is a heretical thought: He allowed them to be taken.

 

All part of the plan. The long game.

 

With the Emperor being as long lived as He was... emerging far back in Ancient Terra's past...

 

Ever wonder how the world was brought into it's Age of Strife in the first place? It certainly set the stage for the Emperor to "appear" as humanity's savior. Do you innocently think He didn't push the big button to bring humanity into a more compliant manageable state?

 

Sure He would use them as His generals to lead His Great Crusade. Just as He used His own "Thunder Warriors" to unify Terra. And we know how He dealt with them when the steps toward His goal of unification had been achieved.

 

The Emperor cast His dice and let them fall where they would. His own death would not and could not change His plans. He obviously loves a challenge.

 

So, after 10,000 years of drawing Chaos out into constant battle... it appears the end times are near.... or are they?

 

Reality and Chaos realms colliding? Sure. What better way to break them? Better to drain them of their power as humanity and chaos, like positive and negative particles, try to annihilate each other. The Emperor's future will extend beyond this grim dark future. Whether there will be many others around to see it...?

 

He'll rebuild His vision of humanity upon the ashes of the old.

 

Have faith in Him. He has a plan. He's done it before. He'll do it again.

[Huggtand]

It´s really simple, the Emperor could not win the HH because GW wanted the grimdark setting for the 40k universe

If we think of it as not predetermined, of course big E could have won if he had made some other decisions. The HH was carried on by some very small margins of error at times.

[Augustus]

The possibility, slim, should exist that the Emperor had foreseen the HH and made steps to alter it / change the future etc. Then in the same vein Tzeentch should have seen the Emperor foreseeing the HH and take steps to stop him. And in response the Emperor should have been aware that the possibity existed that Tzeentch would become aware of the fact that the Emperor would have found out Chaos' plan with the HH and alter his plans according.

 

Then Alpha Legion.

[Ordo Machinum]

Ever wonder how the world was brought into it's Age of Strife in the first place?

Eldar.

Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, C'tans, ... all part of the plan ... all to be removed ...

The Emperor cannot know all, but enough to know how probabilities can be shifted.

And then it turns out that Tzeencht planned for those shifts from the very beginning.

Ah, but Tzeench itself is just another piece of the established cosmic game. The Emperor is knocking over the board.

The Emperor cannot know all, but enough to know how probabilities can be shifted.

And then it turns out that Tzeencht planned for those shifts from the very beginning.

And planned how to stop his plans from being planned into plans.

Except the Emperor will do what none of the other game changers will. Risk death for His dream for humanity.

I find this theory somewhat less than convincing.

"Now that I have been reduced to a withered corpse on life support for 10,000 years and my armies are losing on all fronts --- I have them RIGHT where I want them!!!"

Who would expect it? He's not only physical being, is He? He's at His most dangerous when He's believed to be down for the count.

It´s really simple, the Emperor could not win the HH because GW wanted the grimdark setting for the 40k universe

If we think of it as not predetermined, of course big E could have won if he had made some other decisions. The HH was carried on by some very small margins of error at times.

Some very well planned small margins of errors. It's the small shifts that make the biggest changes long, long down the road.

The possibility, slim, should exist that the Emperor had foreseen the HH and made steps to alter it / change the future etc. Then in the same vein Tzeentch should have seen the Emperor foreseeing the HH and take steps to stop him. And in response the Emperor should have been aware that the possibity existed that Tzeentch would become aware of the fact that the Emperor would have found out Chaos' plan with the HH and alter his plans according.

Then Alpha Legion.

Almost... INCONCEIVABLE, isn't it?

Chaos is worrying over which drink is poisoned, only for the Emperor to have made Himself immune in the first place!

(I really have to stop falling asleep watching old movies...)

[helterskelter]

if dr.wh..I mean Argal tal never went back in time and destroyed what he destroyed the heresy would NEVER have happened

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

if dr.wh..I mean Argal tal never went back in time and destroyed what he destroyed the heresy would NEVER have happened

 

Only if you believe that the Daemon was telling the truth and they were actually back in time, rather than being shown a distorted recreation of events to convince them to fall to the Warp.

[Marshal Rohr]

A 30,000 year old tactician (by the Heresy-era) should be able to calculate for his own probabilities of miscalculation. He should know himself pretty well by the time of the Heresy at least. Sort of like psycho-history of the Asimov Foundation series. Just with more bolters.

 

The Emperor cannot know all, but enough to know how probabilities can be shifted.

But no one makes decisions based on perfect information. Even with 30,000 years of experience you make mistakes. I'm not saying he made them often, considering he conquered all of earth, killed off the thunder warriors, and then led a crusade that founded a high functioning interstellar empire in only 200 years. But he thought he could suppress Chaos by telling everyone it was aliens from another dimension. That miscalculation alone is probably the largest and most damaging miscalculation he ever made. First, because it meant that instead of being wary of treating with Daemons, it made Lorgar feel like he was a special pioneer finding the truth of the universe instead of a pawn. Second, because he always allowed Magnus more wiggle room with the Warp he laid the foundation for the the breach that would've overrun Terra with Daemons. Though why he couldn't have just moved the Imperium's capital instead of wasting time fighting over it, I will never know.

[Ordo Machinum]

It's those types of specific examples of His that would make me think they can't be that accidental. 

 

Tzentchian counter foreseeing and planning aside, a virtually omnipotent being can still be waylaid. Mortals can kill gods. That is why there are really no gods as such. They just have a better healthcare plan by reforming in their own home dimension.

 

To comprehend the Emperor as another mortal susceptible to making errors as any human would is wrong. To see the Emperor's plan as farce due to errors in judgment, to see him resulting into a mindless husk on a fancy chair..... We would have to question His sanity. He would have to be insane for it not to truly succeed.

 

He's not insane. He can't be. No. It would be heresy.

 

Emperor = Winning!

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I never really understood why the Emperor did not tell the Primarchs. The Primordial Annihilator is the true enemy of mankind, and the only reason it clawed Horus and others is because they were ignorant of what it was. To them it was just the galaxy telling him the Emperor was a bad guy, there was no malice or sentience behind it.

 

If he'd known it was Chaos, and that Chaos was always trying to subsume the weak; well the Warmaster would have been like errrrmergerrrd no wai and banished the Chaos things.

 

The Word Bearers may have still fallen, it seems likely. It just seems more likely that knowledge, even proscribed at the very top of Legion commands, would have enabled them to go 'Oh hey those Word Bearers are somewhat corruped'

 

I guess the Emps didn't want the Imperium to know that entities that are essentially perfect descriptions of 'Dark Gods' existed. It would have broken his Imperial Truth.

[Daemon2027]

Not sure telling the Primarchs that there was a greater power then Humanity out there was a good idea. Notice that the Primarchs believe fully in humanities dominance, they are programmed to. They are the best of the race that is the rightful ruler over a whole galaxy. Telling them there are being of greater power, would probally see half of the Primarchs packing up thier legions and heading into the Eye to challange them, and the other half trying to research these gods, which would lead to thier seduction. The Emperor knew what Chaos could do, could he trust his 'sons' to really prevail over them. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

 

Was the Heresy inevitable? No, but there was always a high chance it would happen, he knew the forces he was up against. Not sure the Emperor won or lost really. I think his aim was to shut down Chaos while taking their power to ensure humanities future. In a sence he gains thier power, but his mortal form is destroyed in the process, and he is limited to what he can do in the warp.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

It's not like the Emperor is gonna outright say 'These are the Chaos Gods and they're 100x better than you, you and you'

Simply letting them know there's a vastly powerful alien sentience in the warp, akin to what humanity thought were gods. It's not a direct force but will subvert the out of you. They'd know to recognise the taint as something more than just random warp energy/creatures but as a malign sentience it really is. The Primarchs knew the warp could spew out creatures and turn people insane, but that it was just a side-effect of the warp. As Grammaticus put it they understood Chaos as a child would understand it.

As for rushing off to face it? Eh, how do you fight the warp? Oh right the Emperor is building a human webway so we aren't exposed to it. So all we need to do is Crusade the out of the Galaxy and do our best to keep it secular and clean till the Webway is done.

[Adra'Melek]

Heresy was inevitable because it had already happened before they started fleshing it out.  They then had to write it in such a way that it was believable for the Primarchs to turn (Horus being possessed and convincing the other was too bland it seems). Unfortunately it seems more like "why did some stay loyal?".  They needed to have the nature of chaos hidden so they could sneak up and trick Horus, instead of the Great Crusade being a deliberate war on Chaos.

[Daemon2027]

Well the Space Wolves 13th went running into the warp post heresy, if they knew what was in there before what stopping Russ taking his while Legion in. Or Angron, or Horus. Suddenly all the Legions are in the wrong dimension due to the hubris of thier Primarchs.

[Wade Garrett]

As for rushing off to face it? Eh, how do you fight the warp? Oh right the Emperor is building a human webway so we aren't exposed to it. So all we need to do is Crusade the out of the Galaxy and do our best to keep it secular and clean till the Webway is done.

The Webway? That's your answer? There's this teensy tiny little problem where the ones who created the Webway wound up having the collective soul of their race used as a chew toy by the God of Orgies.

If that's the sum total of Emps big plan to get rid of Chaos, He was borked before the first Crusader Fleet left Terra.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

As for rushing off to face it? Eh, how do you fight the warp? Oh right the Emperor is building a human webway so we aren't exposed to it. So all we need to do is Crusade the out of the Galaxy and do our best to keep it secular and clean till the Webway is done.

The Webway? That's your answer? There's this teensy tiny little problem where the ones who created the Webway wound up having the collective soul of their race used as a chew toy by the God of Orgies.

If that's the sum total of Emps big plan to get rid of Chaos, He was borked before the first Crusader Fleet left Terra.

Well the entirety of humanity birthing a new Chaos god isn't a Heresy derived from their Primarchs betraying the Imperium.

So I consider that an irrelevant point to the debate about was this particular Heresy inevitable.

[Wade Garrett]

The Webway won't do a thing to solve the problems that made the Primarchs turn on the Emperor.

 

Magnus still has to sell out to Tzeencht to stop the Flesh Change.

 

Perturbato still feels like he does all the work and everyone else gets all the credit.

 

Lorgar is still seething over exploding cities and enforced atheism.

 

Curze is still Curze.

 

Fulgrim is still chatting with his awesome new sword.

 

Angron still rages against wearing the Emperor's chains.

 

Alpharius is still chatting with the Cabal.

 

Horus is still going to turn evil as soon as someone pretends to be one of his dead sons and shows him a vision of a future where nobody builds statues of him.

 

The only thing that changes is that the Death Guard walk out of the Webway to attack Terra as a normal traitor Legion led by a necromancer instead of an army of fat zombies.