Could a mass jumper list work?

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hey guys as always I'm trying to figure out a play style for myself. As a guy who started blood angels in 5th I have a thing for jumpers. I know that many of you on this board could say the same as well. With the new codex we cannot run troop choice assault marines anymore but that won't stop me. The idea of the army is to be a horde of marines flying your way supported by either vehicles or drop pods. The list would be composed of Dante, sanguinary guard, death company, assault marines, command squads, tactical squads with flamers all round, and fragioso, and baal predator. All of this would be from the Baal strike force instead of the flesh tearers one. My reasoning being that with flesh tearers sure I can bring a lot of them but they are basically the same as the one from the old codex with a small chance of getting rage while that 1+ initiative is awesome and makes them like their old 5th edition. I'm trying to figure out what to run in the h.q. spot it's either chaplain for DC, sanguinary priest but the only squad that would use their help would be sanguinary guard, and the librarian who would go with DC or sanguinary guard. What do you guys think? Can it be done effectively?

[Morticon]

I think it could dependent on 2 things,

1. How much terrain you play with,

2. If you're playing Tau

I think there's just one concern you need to deal with, and that is rear claiming. ASMs and other jumpers are priced for assault. Keeping them back for objectives is a poor choice and a poor use of points. As a result, i would consider grabbing 2x Vengeance Batteries of choice. Alternatively, you can make use of the troop tax, and put las-caddy TACs at the back.

Infiltrating scout units will synergize well with a predominantly jumping list.

Beyond that, a good starting point is the Angel's Wrath Intervention force. It frees up loads of slots - you can use a Angels Wing Priest for the VVets to make sure they go where needed.

At 1850, you can field something like this:

Dante (220) * (Optional, but a nice beat stick - Id be in two minds considering the Veritas can offer more strategic value. Without Dante you will have enough points for either another squad of DC, another squad of SG or another ASM squad - flavour to taste)

Priest- Veritas, BP, Ausp, Edge, Wing ( 126)

7x Sang Guard - IP, PF (251)

8x DC - PW, PF - JP (224)

10x BP/CCW, Vet, PW, MB (140)

5x TAC - LC (90)

10x ASM - PF vet, 2MG (235)

ANGELS WRATH

8x VVet - 4-SS, 1PW, 3MB - (246) (Priest Goes here, probs)

6x ASM - PW vet, 2MG (147)

6x ASM - PW vet, 2MG (147)

__________


I dont think this is a tournament winner in the most competitive circuits with Knights/Tau/Tau-dar etc etc. But, i think for casual competitive play its solid. Lots of melta, lots of attacks, lots of options. I'd prefer to go without Dante for more jumpers/squads, but again- meta dependent.

You also dont "need" the Angels Wrath detachment if you want to keep your options open.

[bigted]

A unit of scouts with camo cloaks and sniper rifles would be nice to sit in the backfield and hopefully put some hurt on MCs, while being hard to kill due to high cover saves from camo cloaks. I think a jumper list is fun and decent in casual games, but not great in tournies. Alternatively, you could have a podded suicide melta squad or two, along with a podded tac squad. This would be a nice alpha strike and take some of the heat off your jumpers running up the field. If you're really adamant about the whole JP theme you could DS the melta suicide squads instead. If you bring Dante along (and you should!) this could make a decent alpha strike.

[Shaezus]

There was a frater on here the other day who said he ran a full jump list with some 100 marines...can't find his post now.

 

In theory, after drumming up a quick list the other night and trying to keep it as balanced as possible for weapon loadouts, I think the best way to run them would be footslogging it. Especially in the competitive environment vs the likes of Tau 'our interceptor firepower alone is greater than your whole army's firepower' broadside-riptide-fire support cadre filthery.

 

Sheer weight of numbers means that at least part of your army will get to charge in turn two and hopefully stay locked. The remainder would hopefully be numerous enough to charge the back-line on turn three.

 

No need to take long-range heavy weaponry or meltacide squads; a liberal smattering of meltabombs and just get up close and charge that rear armour value.

 

No need to take Dante, unless your meta tends to include lots of biomancer DPs and the like and you really need the heavy beat-stick.

 

Am sure we've all seen armies struggle against PA hordes of fifty-odd models, so imagine what a 70+ strong jump-packed PA army could do. Maybe not top-tier competitive, but I so want to try it. Especially with 10-man SG now.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Thankfully in my area there's no eldar or tau. Yeah I'm mostly going for casual competitive. For tournament games I'm probably just going with a different list. Also is the angels wrath in the white dwarf or in shield of Baal?

[ThatOneMarshal]

I was thinking I go more DC heavy since assault really are good at being a fast melta delivery mechanism. A 10 man DC squad with jump packs is only 30 points more expensive than an assault marine squad. I'm trying to figure if I should go with meltacide assault marines or if I should do ten of them on the field. Having them on the field provides more saturation while with the pod I drop in and destroy a scary vehicle that threatens my jumpers. If I go with the pod it saves points to which would allow me to bring on anti air which I feel is one the weaknesses of the list. Also I was thinking of adding some vehicle or pod support. Eithther posed assualt marines, fragioso, and tactical squad or fast vehicles like sicarian and either baal predators, predators, or vindicators. Even the whirlwind scorpius sounds fun in this list.

[David Ravel]

I'm trying an almost Jumper-only list tomorrow against an Imperial Guard player. If you want I can report back here. I'm still not sure of the ''exact'' list, but I'm gonna include at the very least Dante + SG + SPriest in one team, and at least two 8-10 DC with jumppack (maybe Astorath in one). Also gonna include one full pod with either sternguards or DC with bolters. No sure about the rest. Probably gonna be 1500 so probably already near that with troops. Gonna try to build more with JP and try to be able to field 4 team instead of only 2. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

I'm trying an almost Jumper-only list tomorrow against an Imperial Guard player. If you want I can report back here. I'm still not sure of the ''exact'' list, but I'm gonna include at the very least Dante + SG + SPriest in one team, and at least two 8-10 DC with jumppack (maybe Astorath in one). Also gonna include one full pod with either sternguards or DC with bolters. No sure about the rest. Probably gonna be 1500 so probably already near that with troops. Gonna try to build more with JP and try to be able to field 4 team instead of only 2.

 

Feel free to post your expeirence and good luck IG are pretty scary for a foot slogging army with there wyvren a, ignore cover platoon, and leman russ/ pask. Thankfully they are slow as molasses.m and we are faster than I sain bolt. Sounds like a fun list.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I'd be interested in your Batrep too, David Ravel. This is a play style that greatly appeals to me also.

[knife&fork]

Tau is probably less of a problem than Eldar for massed jumpers. You'll completely dominate Tau in CC even with very few models remaining, not so with Eldar who are at least decent at fighting. 

 

Tau are normally slower than Eldar too. Tau will struggle to outrun jumpers (and likely will have to give up shooting in order to do so) while Eldar can just turbo boost across the board with many units.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I've not played Tau much at all, but when I did I didn't find their much-vaunted over watch to be so much of a much. Maybe my opponent was just really bad at rolling 6's. His list was very tough with 2 riptide and a bunch of broadsides at 1500.

[walpurgisnacht]

No marker lights?

Pathfinders are my first priority for fish frying.

 

I'm looking at jumper with drop dread support and scouts in ravens. My area is fairly competitive with serpent spam and knights, so I haven't been very successful as of late.

[knife&fork]

I've not played Tau much at all, but when I did I didn't find their much-vaunted over watch to be so much of a much. Maybe my opponent was just really bad at rolling 6's. His list was very tough with 2 riptide and a bunch of broadsides at 1500.

 

I've never seen pure Tau used by the ultra-competitive, codex hopping players. It's always complimented by at least another faction, usually eldar. 

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

No marker lights?

Pathfinders are my first priority for fish frying.

 

I'm looking at jumper with drop dread support and scouts in ravens. My area is fairly competitive with serpent spam and knights, so I haven't been very successful as of late.

 

Oh there were marker-lights for sure. As I recall I was able to use terrain to block their LOS so maybe that's why the overwatch wasn't so bad.

 

 

I've not played Tau much at all, but when I did I didn't find their much-vaunted over watch to be so much of a much. Maybe my opponent was just really bad at rolling 6's. His list was very tough with 2 riptide and a bunch of broadsides at 1500.

 

I've never seen pure Tau used by the ultra-competitive, codex hopping players. It's always complimented by at least another faction, usually eldar. 

 

 

Ok, fair enough. The people I play are competitive and use what I consider pretty tough lists, but they are not codex-hoppers in any way.

[Shaezus]

 

No marker lights?

Pathfinders are my first priority for fish frying.

 

I'm looking at jumper with drop dread support and scouts in ravens. My area is fairly competitive with serpent spam and knights, so I haven't been very successful as of late.

WS spam is a tough match up for dread alpha strikes indeed, probably the toughest.

 

Really need to get penetrations on turn one - harder than ever with the change to magnagrapple now - or they just run rings round us. If he gets turn one, it's even tougher. Hated em. But now I think we can hit WK with grav and with 4 melta shots from a 5-man ASM plus the possibility of having an HQ choice with auspex drop in nearby, we've more firepower vs serpents.

 

And then there's the Sicaran.

[Shaezus]

 

 

I've not played Tau much at all, but when I did I didn't find their much-vaunted over watch to be so much of a much. Maybe my opponent was just really bad at rolling 6's. His list was very tough with 2 riptide and a bunch of broadsides at 1500.

I've never seen pure Tau used by the ultra-competitive, codex hopping players. It's always complimented by at least another faction, usually eldar.

Pretty much this. Actually, only seen them with eldar.

[Tame]

I don't know if it can work, but I'm certainly going to try... I have been playing a jump pack army from the beginning and don't own any non-flyer/skimmers vehicles. Except for Space Hulk terminators, all my non-scout marines have jump packs, I don't even own a tactical squad :)

 

I haven't played any games with the new codex yet, and I am not into competitive stuff, but I'm planning to use something like:

Dante

2x Sanguinary Priest

Command Squad (3 meltaguns, maybe 3 Storm Shields to make them more versatile - they'll be magnetized anyway)

Death Company Squad (9 marines, a couple fists, maybe a power weapon)

Sanguinary Squad (8 marines, banner, a couple fists and 2-3 infernus pistols)

Scout squad (close combat weapons)

Scout squad (sniper rifles and missile launcher)

3x Assault Squad (2 meltaguns, a fist or power weapon on the sergeant)

 

Throw a few meltabombs and/or combi-melta and that's 2000 points, using Baal Strike Force Detachment. I feel like you need the +1 I to make it work, so you can take whatever detachment/formation you want, but for the jumpers you probably want either Flesh Tearers Vanguard Strike Force Formation (Exterminatus) or Baal Strike Force Detachment (codex) to be effective.

 

I might remove Dante & the Command Squad to get a couple stormravens if expecting a lot of flyers (giving appropriate relics to one of the priests to keep a character able to strike with AP2 at initiative).

[Deschenus Maximus]

@OP: I think it can be done somewhat effectively, but you'd likely enjoy more success with a combined arms approach. You probably already know that though.

 

If I HAD to make an all-jump list, it'd probably look something like this:

 

+ HQ +

Librarian [bolt Pistol, Galian's Staff, Jump pack, Psyker (ML2)] <= rolling on Divination, attached to DC.

+ Elites +

Command Squad [Jump Packs] <= Deep Strike
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]

Command Squad [Jump Packs] <= Deep Strike
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]

Command Squad [Jump Packs] <= Deep Strike
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]
··Veteran [Meltagun, Storm shield]

BP/CCW Death Company Squad [15x Death Company Marine, Jump Pack, 2x Power Fist + boltgun] <=Starts on the board

+ Troops +

BP/CCW Scout Squad [scout Sergeant, 4x Scouts] <=Starts on the board

BP/CCW Scout Squad [scout Sergeant, 4x Scouts] <=Starts on the board

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, Assault Sergeant, Jump Packs, 2x Meltagun] <= Deep Strike

+ Lords of War +

Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels <= attached to DC

[Chaplain Admetus]

I've not played Tau much at all, but when I did I didn't find their much-vaunted over watch to be so much of a much. Maybe my opponent was just really bad at rolling 6's. His list was very tough with 2 riptide and a bunch of broadsides at 1500.

I've never seen pure Tau used by the ultra-competitive, codex hopping players. It's always complimented by at least another faction, usually eldar.

Pretty much this. Actually, only seen them with eldar.

Tau/Farsight is actually a pretty brutal combo if the Tau player knows what they're doing. Most of the time it's cheesed to get extra riptides though.

[David Ravel]

Greetings everyone. Since some of you wanted my batrep, I'm gonna do it here. It's gonna be a short one since (I guess) you want to know what works and what doesn't works (at least in this particular exemple). 

 

I must say that at first I thought we would play 1500, and we decided to play 1850. So my list is mostly ''1500 with added stuff'' (mostly characters) and therefore doesn't represent ''exactly'' what I would consider a good Jump list. Also, we never play competition in my gaming group, so my list and batrep is mostly for casual to ''non-sucky-list'' casual. Also, keep in mind that I double checked my list pts. So if there is an error in pointing, it is my memory from the game, and not the other way around. The only error I made was that I included my Chaplain in the elite, but it's an HQ. 

 

I had :

 

HQ

Sanguinary Priest /w Jump Pack, /w Power Axe 

Captain /w Artificer, /w Jump Pack, /w Power Sword, /w Flamer Pistol

 

Elite

5 Sanguinary Guard (/w 4 sword /w 1 axe)

11 DC /w CCW, /w 3 Hand Flamer 

11 DC /w CCW, /w 3 Melta Pistol

 

Troops

Cassor the Damned /w Drop Pod (Fast choice)

Raphen's Death Company

 

LOW 

Dante

 

SECONDARY (Baal Strike Force)

 

HQ

Librarian /w Staff /w mlvl 2 /w Jump Pack

 

Elite

Chaplain /w Jump Pack

 

Troop

5 Scout /w Sniper /w Cloaks

 

Imagine this list with less funky stuff at 1500 and it would give a better idea of what I wanted to play. I deployed the Scout out of LOS to be sure not to lose from being tabled turn 1. I was lucky since my opponent didn't have Wyvern on the board so no indirrect fire. Dante, Chaplain, Librarian and Sanguinary Priest all went with the S. Guard. The Captain went with a team of DC with the same pistol wep. 

 

His list, from memory, was this : 

Paskisher /w HB sponsons

(in squadron with) a LRBC

10 Scions /w flamers in Chimera 

5 Command Squad Scions with Plasma

A blob with priest

Command squad with lascannon in ruins

LRBC

LRDemo

10 Vets with demo/grenadier and plasma in Chimera

Couple of dedicated (but empty) Chimera from the platoon for added fire power

 

I lost on pts. The game ended on turn 5 on a roll of 2. I was sad because he only had one team of 10 scions left on the board. 

 

What I liked :

- Multiple cheap (DC model is only 23 with the JP) pistol weapons. They all did what they had to do. Flamers killed the blob (with help of a charge) and the melta pistol wrecked couple of tanks. I can't see myself not running at least 4-6 pistol of each kind (either by group of 2 or 3, depending on the size of the unit I'm running)

- Dante. He didn't attack, he didn't charge. Pask + plasm + democharge + etc. killed him. Yet he worked magically to make my Sang Guard survive (especially with that SPriest in the same team giving him FNP when he could use it) and drew alot of firepower (distraction carnifex). Also, the bonus for reserve and tactical objectives is gold. In general, I must say that having character in front taking wounds for the guy behind is the way to go with JPack. My captain did the same thing with my DC (but survived): when you have full turn of firepower against you (especially Guards, Eldar, Tau, etc.) you WANT that 2+/4++ in front. Unless of course you run couple of small units, which is something I might be tempted to do: I'll come back to this. But it plays differently, because unless the opponent has no blast or large blast, you're gonna have to waste your shooting by a run move to get out of the way. That first shooting phase was really good for me (I must say I'm lucky on very close deep strike; yet it's quite easy with only d6'' because of Dante), and it paves the way for the turn 3 charge (which is really scary with Furious Charge and I5). 

- Furious Charge. I'm tempted to equip more Power Maul to hit at S7 I5. My chaplain wacked three tank by himself jumping in and out of LOS and cover to charge stuff. It's amazing. My captain defintivly gonna get his arm snapped and equip a maul. Even against MC and Walker, he can do stuff with all those S7 attack at I6 on the charge. Give him the primaris and he's in for violence. 

 

What I didn't like :

- Troop tax. It was fun for the Deathstorm guy (even if they are too equiped, and therefore WAY too costy, which is VERY meh), but the scout did absolutly nothing. Normal troops can't fit into this game plan. My next list probably gonna include 2 pod with Dreadnought for more distraction carnifex on turn 2 (since the opponent can fire either at the Nought or the newly dropped jumpers) and a third one with a full team of Tac Squad with Heavy Flamer-Flamer-Combi Flamer. Maybe I'll stick a character in there for added 2+ and then let him go on other target by himself (I'm thinking of Mephiston here, especially with that mlvl 3). 

- One librarian. I had 3 awesome spell in this game (the blood lance, the blood explosion thing and the primaris). I couldn't use more than one per turn even with the staff and a high warp charge dice. I need more. This is one of the reason I'm thinking of running a Libby Nought and Mephiston (see my last pts about Troop Tax). 

- Difficult to manoeuvre. Not so much something I didn't like, but since you're always moving around, getting cover, charging stuff so you don't die to a LRBC in the next round, etc. you never have time to sit on a objective and score. Sure it's a pointing game, but if you loose a whole squad in shooting because you wanted that +1 pts, you're still gonna loose. I'm gonna have to think this one out, but MSU would be a good plan. 

 

Overall I would have done well in a 1500 game with less characters and upgrade, but I really think that DC are awesome. Lots of special wep both in CC and in shooting (pistol) and easy to have MSU with good utility. I like the Captan since he give surviviability to a squad (and as I said, with a Maul he's probably gonna be real mean). Also, I would probably run more Power Fist. The Priest axe is quite useless since he's with Dante and he got ap3 fixed by S Guard. Even the S Guard I would use a Fist instead of a Axe. Even the DC could use a Thunder Hammer or two (especially if I take more than 10). 

[Shaezus]

I've not played Tau much at all, but when I did I didn't find their much-vaunted over watch to be so much of a much. Maybe my opponent was just really bad at rolling 6's. His list was very tough with 2 riptide and a bunch of broadsides at 1500.

I've never seen pure Tau used by the ultra-competitive, codex hopping players. It's always complimented by at least another faction, usually eldar.

Pretty much this. Actually, only seen them with eldar.

Tau/Farsight is actually a pretty brutal combo if the Tau player knows what they're doing. Most of the time it's cheesed to get extra riptides though.

Only played against farsight bomb twice, it struck me as an odd concept personally. I don't know if the guy knew what he was doing or not but it's a helluva lot of stuff to drop in one unit. And we all know how Tau don't like it up 'em so it just seems vulnerable to counter-assault IMO. Or low AP blast / large blast.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Thanks for the report, David.

 

Did you deploy everything on the board, or did you deep-strike some units?

 

When you say the enemy had "Paskisher" I take it you mean "Paskunisher" using the Punisher chaingun tank, rather than Paskuisher with the Vanquisher tank hunter?

 

Re: troop tax, I wonder if it wouldn't have been worth actually bringing more scouts for holding those objectives that you didn't want to have your other troops stop on? With camo cloaks they could hold out pretty well on an objective.

 

Seems like the biggest problem was the surprise 350 pt increase that you learned of once you were already at the game. I think at 1500 pts without the filler to get you up to 1850 it would have been a closer batter. It seems like an all-jumper list is solid if it did this well against a pretty standard IG list (which I would think would be one of the more difficult match-ups).

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

And then there's the Sicaran.

 

 

What does the Sicaran do that makes it so worthwhile apparently? I'm just curious since I don't have the rules for it, nor any weapon profiles.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Snorri

[DarthOvious]

Only played against farsight bomb twice, it struck me as an odd concept personally. I don't know if the guy knew what he was doing or not but it's a helluva lot of stuff to drop in one unit. And we all know how Tau don't like it up 'em so it just seems vulnerable to counter-assault IMO. Or low AP blast / large blast.

The idea is to give Target Lock to all the suits meanings the unit can shoot at multiple targets when it lands. So the Tau player is looking to wipe that part of the table out and thus not be charged in his opponents turn because everything else is just out of range. I've used it myself beforecand it can be quite effective.

[hairojin]

 

 

And then there's the Sicaran.

 

 

What does the Sicaran do that makes it so worthwhile apparently? I'm just curious since I don't have the rules for it, nor any weapon profiles.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Snorri

 

It's AV 13/12/12 with a twin-linked accelerator autocannon. Heavy 6, rending and it ignores jink. Also you can give it lascannons or heavy bolter sponsons and ceramite plating. It has better shooting than a land raider IMO and doesn't have to pay for the ability to transport. Oh, and it's fast.