What makes these models competitive?

[EnterRehab]

I completely understand some of them,  but as a new player, I don't understand why some models are competitive and others aren't.  Specifically these models:

 

Notes:

Reminder. This is not a guide to the models, I'm asking WHY.

If the models aren't listed, its because I already understand why or why not.

 

Competitive:

1. Librarian.  Most everyone would at least bump this guy up and then his points become 135-170.. Making him the same cost as everything else(ish).
2. Purifiers.  Because all of them can be running with flamers?  You need to invest no less than 35 more points to get them anywhere, and even then- you're more likely to put them into a raven (or pod if allying).
3. Terminators.  I love these models, but the usefulness is REALLY up in the air when facing these shooty armies of 7th.  If you're not DS'ing them, are you moving them around with gate?  The usefulness is REALLY dependent.  I assume they're competitive for the 2++/5++ & hammerhand @ 165pt.
4. Stormraven.  Is this because it's a good flyer, or is there a different reason?
5. Interceptors.  Jump & DS, flamers?.. Not even a good guess.

 

 

Not Competitive:

1. Landraider:  I imagine this is based on the local meta. 14 is hard to pop in my local.
2. Paladins. This is a bit more detailed.  A paladin squad of 4 + apothecary is 270 pt base.  for another (20?) points each, you can throw in 2 more psycannons.  At 310pt, you've got 10 wounds, 2++/5++ w/ FNP.  You're already probably taking a librarian- of which you're probably going to fish for sanctuary and gate.. I guess it's sucky because AP2 can be taken away so easily now? Having to get lucky for a 4++ invuln and a 5++ FNP?

[Grand Master Caloth]

Librarians: ML3 great for his points, and actually I just run him as a buff man with Divination.

 

Purifiers; Cleansing Flame, fearless, 2 attacks base.

 

Terminators: their saves are huge, and the fact we have them as a troop option instead of elite.

 

Stormraven: our best anti-air option, best access to mobile AP2 weapons, versatile in being a gunship and a transport (12 models and a dreadnought)

 

Interceptors: mobile, shunt for either super aggressive play or last second objective grab, and while there is a plethora of ap2 and 3 weapons, power armor saves are still good, and every army is held against that standard still

 

Landraiders: based meta to meta, and with the change to the vehicle damage chart, yes it is little more difficult, but 33% is not great odds for it vs ap2 weapons

 

Paladins: will post my thoughts in a few, have to drive

[jeffersonian000]

1. Librarians are our best HQ choice because they are both inexpensive compared to the other choices and a force multiplier via Psychic powers. PML3 is a must as it is a steal for its current pricing.

 

2. Purifiers are not a must in my opinion, due to lack of mobility. Others find them to be a go to unit for the 2-4 Warp charges per squad + Cleansing Flames. I find them meh, personally.

 

3. Our GKT are the best Troop choice in the game due to the huge nerf to Psycannons making Strikers functionally useless. At least Strikers can still Deep Striker. Some people take Strikes as a cheap troop to unlock ponts for more Nemesis DreadKnights. That said, GKT are a solid Troop choice no other codex currently can match.

 

4. Stormraven aren't just a good flyer, they are our only flyer in faction. If you want a GK Flyer, you have no choice but to take a Stormraven, although you could take the Stormwing formation and get two "GK" Stormtalons along with a "GK" Stormraven as a good Counts-As.

 

5. Interceptors are the only viable PAGK unit in the codex at the moment, other than Purifuers. 12" move, Incinerators, 30" Shunt, they are literally the best PA unit in the game for fast aggressive play, which GK accel at.

 

6. Land Raiders are over priced death boxes, just big square coffins you play premium for. Yes, they are great against new players who have no clue on how to pop an AV14 vehicle. To everyone else, they are a one turn rolling bunker that are only slightly tougher to get first blood on than a Rhino. If you have the points for a Land Raider, you should be taking DreadKnights. If you have no more slots for more DreadKnights, or need a transport, take an empty Stormraven and rework your list so you don't need a transport.

 

7. Paladins are too expensive for a unit that dies to AP2 pie-plates just like much cheaper GKT. The only reason to take Paladins is for a Deathstar with FnP, Banner, and 2-4 Psycannons. At those point levels, though, you would have been better off taking GKT and another NDK. If Paladins were cheaper, or had a better Invul save, or a higher toughness, they would be worth taking. As is, they are a bad buy.

 

SJ

[ChaoticEric]

As for paladins I'd say that they still have good staying power against everything that's very high s/low ap and causes instant death with only a 5++ to rely on (fnp if you've paid for the apothecary but that doesn't help with the ID attacks). What I tend to find though is that their damage output is too low for their points costs. They cost almost twice as much as a regular terminator but have the same number and kind of attacks and they are the same mastery level and have no extra damage output through psychic powers.

 

If you buy regular terminators for the same points you'd spend on paladins I find them more versatile and more powerful than paladins.

[EnterRehab]

As for paladins I'd say that they still have good staying power against everything that's very high s/low ap and causes instant death with only a 5++ to rely on (fnp if you've paid for the apothecary but that doesn't help with the ID attacks). What I tend to find though is that their damage output is too low for their points costs. They cost almost twice as much as a regular terminator but have the same number and kind of attacks and they are the same mastery level and have no extra damage output through psychic powers.

 

If you buy regular terminators for the same points you'd spend on paladins I find them more versatile and more powerful than paladins.

 

True, but you get to take twice the amount of psycannons.

 

At 185pts for 5 terminators w/ 1 cannon you've got:

10 Melee attacks (15 on charge)

8 Str4 AP5 shots

4/Blast rending Str7 AP4 shots

2+/5++ saves

5 Total wounds

 

Vs.

 

At 310 pts for 4 Paladins and 1 apothecary

10 Melee attacks (15 on Charge)

4 Str4 AP5 shots

8/(2) Blast rending Str7 AP4 shots

2+/5++/FNP saves

10 Wounds

 

Using only 1000 points, we only use squads of Paladin + apothecary vs. Terminators only

 

5.4 squads of terminators, so we'll round down for both.  5 Squads

 

Terminators: (925 pts)

50/75 Melee/charge

40 Str4 AP5 Shots

20/(5)Blast/Rending Str7 AP4 shots

2+/5++ Saves

25 Wounds

 

3 Squads of Paladins

Paladins: (930 Pts)

30/45 Melee/Charge

12 Str4 AP5 Shots

24/(6)Blast/Rending Str7 AP4 Shots

2+/5++ Saves

30 Wounds/FNP

 

Not sure how many paladins can be in a single squad, don't have my book on me.  It'd be even cheaper for Paladins if you could clump all 3 squads together and take a single Apothecary.

 

You're losing 20/30 melee attacks, losing 28 Bolter shots, gaining 1 psycannon, gaining 5 wounds (the amount of 5 more terminators), and gaining FNP.

[Gentlemanloser]

You're losing 20/30 melee attacks, losing 28 Bolter shots

 

And that's why.

 

If Paladin had Eternal Warrior, maybe.  But without, they're too fragile and lose too many attacks.

 

An extra Psycannon isn't worth it.

 

Oh and they can't be your compulsory unit choice now either.

[ChaoticEric]

I forgot about the extra psycannon so there the difference is smaller than I thought.

 

In your configuration the paladins are also giving up two extra warp charges to the terminators.

 

Admittedly, in CC the ws5 of paladins will negate some of the difference in no of attacks as more of them will hit against ws4 opponents.

 

But that's the easy basics, then comes the almost endless variables :)

 

For example; drop one terminator and use the points to buy 8 falchions for a net increase in no of attacks by 6 when not on the charge. Yes, you'll also lose 2 bolter shots.

 

And the difference in output of wounds becomes much greater when you consider succesfully manifesting hammerhand on a unit. The wound output per attack increases dramatically and hence also the "value" of each attack. Same thing against 2+ or ++ enemies, you'll wittle them down quicker with more attacks and therefore suffering fewer attacks/wounds in return and hence become more survivable as well :)

[Brom MKIV]

Honestly brother most of those aren't 'competitive'. The ML 3 libby is due to access to telepathy/divination which are both enablers of more busted combinations. Hes on par with the only other generic ML 3 psykers in the game (CSM and of course eldar). Hes a huge force multiplier and a component of better things when synergies combine, and hes aggressively costed.

 

The stormraven is also noteworthy due to being one of the most shooty and resilient flyers in the game, regardless of faction. That alone makes it a consideration in a competitive list, although even then its not an auto include.

 

The rest are not even close man. Purifiers might be arguable for WC batteries, very corner case list specific, but again the libby just does it better IMO due to more WC and better lores.

 

GKTs while good, arguably the best TDA due to BoP S7 asscans etc are still too costly and not enough damage output or mobility and their durability isn't that great in today's highly lethal metas. 

 

Not saying all these choices aren't good per se even in a semi competitive environment, but if your talking strictly from a competitive standpoint they just don't make the cut. 

[raverrn]

 

1. Librarian.
2. Purifiers.
3. Terminators.
4. Stormraven.  
5. Interceptors. 
6. Landraider: 
7. Paladins.

 

Let's go through the list:

1. Librarians are our cheapest HQ to start, which is a huge advantage in such an elite army. They are also our most flexible HQ. They provide a pretty big reserve of Mastery Levels, and 'knights live or die on Hammerhand and defense buffs, so that's often needed. They have access to a Lore that has very few dead spells and some amazingly powerful ones - including potent AoE in Cleansing Flame and armor/MC destruction in Vortex of Doom. They've also got access to melta and atop that are probably the best psyker defense in the game right now. For what you pay it's hard to argue with them.

 

2.Purifiers for a nominal points increase over Strike squads get access to Cleansing Flame and and an extra (or two extra!) mastery levels. It's kinda hard to overstate how good Cleansing Flame is, it really, really is. It covers every need 'knights have - softening up enemies before a charge, cleaning up hordes, anti-air... Purifiers have other upgrades over Strikes, but Cleansing Flame is worth the price of admission by itself.

 

3. Terminators are competitive because they're cheap and they can deal damage to literally any target for not a lot of points, because they don't need a transport and because they're our only good troop choice. A lot of people tend to hate on 2+ saves because weight of fire will overwhelm them, but it's easy to forget that a 2+  is twice as good as a 3+ against things like that, Serpent Shields and Lasgun barrages. Certainly there's a disadvantage against AP2 weapons, but flooding the board with 2+ saves tends to mean not a lot gets to the Termies, most of the high-strength, low-AP heading towards Dreadknights.

 

4.Stormravens are good because they're fast, they're tough and they're heavily armed. Atop tankhunting and Purifierbombing, they're our assassin unit, capable of unloading 5 S8 AP1/2 shots on the flank or rear of almost any enemy unit, sniping out characters of special weapons due to closest-model wound allocation.

 

5. ???

 

6. Land Raiders are weak because the vehicle rules in general are - it takes one bad roll to remove a ~250 point model from the board, and they're very hard to grab a save for compared to a unit that has one as base. Atop that they aren't heavily armed for their points and due to Teleportation are actually one of our SLOWEST units to boot. As an alpha-focused army, a slow, fat transport isn't in our best interest.

 

7. Paladins are grand. Point for point they're tougher than Terminators against S7 and lower, and the Apoth gives them a TON of survivability against plasma and the like. I run three-man 'Give my Libby FnP' units all the time, and have had encouraging results with a five man two 'cannon unit with a 'cannon Grandmaster - there's not many vehicles three Psycannons won't crack, and it's a daunting unit to try and tackle.