Terminator Discussion (And planned testing)

[EnterRehab]

I had seen a thread before (different section of the forums) that discussed the state of terminators in the current rules.  A good chunk of people believe that terminators are in a terrible place due to how easily they can be shredded with the rise of AP2 weaponry.

 

Would you agree that our terminators are in the optimal spot, being the cheapest terminators in the game?  Does it not matter because we still spend too much on everything else?

 

Finally, a few friends and I are going to try a few games using a handful of suggestions listed.  The most promising suggestion so far is giving Terminators an armor save of 1+ instead of 2+.  This would allow for armor saves of AP2 weaponry, while AP1 still gets to melt them, but this might become stupidly broken on beasts like Draigo who would become nigh invincible (if given the same rules)

[ChaoticEric]

A 1++ is pretty much invincible as ++ is usually used for invulnerable saves and + for regular saves :)

 

Our terminators usually have 2+/5++, ie regular 2+ and 5++ invulnerable save.

 

What could be interesting to try is giving them access to storm shields for a 2+/3++ and still keep their storm bolter, points wise they could be around the 55p-mark with that loadout to make them comparable with paladins but with more staying power for ap2/ap1 with high S.

[EnterRehab]

A 1++ is pretty much invincible as ++ is usually used for invulnerable saves and + for regular saves

My mistake. then a 1+ armor and 5++ invuln, as usual.

[jeffersonian000]

The price drop from 40ppm to 33ppm was a huge improvement in midiigating the problems all TDA suffer in the game, however, it is the ppm reduction AND being a Troop choice that makes them useable and "good". At 33ppm + upgrades, our GKT fill the role Tac Squads fill in other Marine armies, which means that our "Tac Marines" wear TDA and have Force weapons.

 

Evern if the other Marine TDA did drop to 30-35ppm, they would still be fighting for an Elite slot, still have a bad weapon mix (Tac Termies; Assault Termies are a different story), and still not as good as Centurions. The ppm reduction works for GK because our guys already were Troops, our Strikers got nerfed hard, and even at 33ppm they have Force weapons, a PML, and one of the best all-purpose range weapons in the game (Psycannons). Regular Marine TDA can't compete.

 

SJ

[EnterRehab]

The price drop from 40ppm to 33ppm was a huge improvement in midiigating the problems all TDA suffer in the game, however, it is the ppm reduction AND being a Troop choice that makes them useable and "good". At 33ppm + upgrades, our GKT fill the role Tac Squads fill in other Marine armies, which means that our "Tac Marines" wear TDA and have Force weapons.

 

Evern if the other Marine TDA did drop to 30-35ppm, they would still be fighting for an Elite slot, still have a bad weapon mix (Tac Termies; Assault Termies are a different story), and still not as good as Centurions. The ppm reduction works for GK because our guys already were Troops, our Strikers got nerfed hard, and even at 33ppm they have Force weapons, a PML, and one of the best all-purpose range weapons in the game (Psycannons). Regular Marine TDA can't compete.

 

SJ

 

And 15MPG in a Ford Mustang is an improvement on the 10MPG it used to have, but it doesn't make it good.  It doesn't address the overall problem with Terminators.  Especially in the GK Codex, where it's the cheapest VIABLE unit to take as a troop choice.  It sucks up almost a quarter of a normal matches points and only fields 10 models that get dropped stupidly fast.  If it's not low AP weaponry, it's mass shooting they annihilates them.  Every time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Our GKT are still the same cost as SW Terminators.  And now Sanguinary Guard (not Terminators, but the lighter more maneuverable version...) are also the same cost.

 

A 1+ Armour save makes perfect sense, and TDA should really have it.  It allows a save versus Plasma Weapons (and the suit were originally designed to work inside Plasma Reactor Cores...) and you still fail automatically on a roll of a 1.

 

So massed Lasguns/Bolters will kill just as many Terminators as before.

[EnterRehab]

Our GKT are still the same cost as SW Terminators.  And now Sanguinary Guard (not Terminators, but the lighter more maneuverable version...) are also the same cost.

 

A 1+ Armour save makes perfect sense, and TDA should really have it.  It allows a save versus Plasma Weapons (and the suit were originally designed to work inside Plasma Reactor Cores...) and you still fail automatically on a roll of a 1.

 

So massed Lasguns/Bolters will kill just as many Terminators as before.

 

Exactly. It just makes them actually viable to field.  When melee-based armies are hurting as bad as they are.. They need SOMETHING to balance the odds.  It won't change how bad they get wrecked by buckets of dice, but it's just a step in the right direction.

[Gentlemanloser]

As Power Weapons are AP3 now, it won't make any effect in CC either.

 

Sure, you'd get a save versus most Fists/Hammers etc.

 

But that's not a bad thing really.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

The price drop from 40ppm to 33ppm was a huge improvement in midiigating the problems all TDA suffer in the game, however, it is the ppm reduction AND being a Troop choice that makes them useable and "good". At 33ppm + upgrades, our GKT fill the role Tac Squads fill in other Marine armies, which means that our "Tac Marines" wear TDA and have Force weapons.

 

Evern if the other Marine TDA did drop to 30-35ppm, they would still be fighting for an Elite slot, still have a bad weapon mix (Tac Termies; Assault Termies are a different story), and still not as good as Centurions. The ppm reduction works for GK because our guys already were Troops, our Strikers got nerfed hard, and even at 33ppm they have Force weapons, a PML, and one of the best all-purpose range weapons in the game (Psycannons). Regular Marine TDA can't compete.

 

SJ

And 15MPG in a Ford Mustang is an improvement on the 10MPG it used to have, but it doesn't make it good. It doesn't address the overall problem with Terminators. Especially in the GK Codex, where it's the cheapest VIABLE unit to take as a troop choice. It sucks up almost a quarter of a normal matches points and only fields 10 models that get dropped stupidly fast. If it's not low AP weaponry, it's mass shooting they annihilates them. Every time.

Not sure what you are going for, as your post seems to have nothing to do with my post that you quoted.

 

SJ

[Captain Coolpants]

Terminators in general are suffering due to massed ap2.

 

Storm sheild toting terminators are in the best spot right now.

 

We only tend to use more terminators because they aren't overly expensive...And are out right better than our power armored troops with optimal weaponry (heavy/salvo)

 

Giving them a 1+ save is a good idea. But it also means that hammers and fists would need to be made ap1 (since they are supposed to be super powerful). Which would then make vehicles more susceptible to blowing, would also makes melta that slightly less useful.

 

So instead of changing the terminator save AND the ap of fists, hammers, big ass guns ect ect

 

Just change the ap of plasma... Simple enough.

 

Makes sense to me because plasma is the most spammed ap2 out there.

 

 

Or another easy fix... Is to make plasma and such, faaaaaar more expensive (maybe get rid of gets hot to counter the price hike?)

[Brom MKIV]

I had seen a thread before (different section of the forums) that discussed the state of terminators in the current rules.  A good chunk of people believe that terminators are in a terrible place due to how easily they can be shredded with the rise of AP2 weaponry.

 

Would you agree that our terminators are in the optimal spot, being the cheapest terminators in the game?  Does it not matter because we still spend too much on everything else?

 

Finally, a few friends and I are going to try a few games using a handful of suggestions listed.  The most promising suggestion so far is giving Terminators an armor save of 1+ instead of 2+.  This would allow for armor saves of AP2 weaponry, while AP1 still gets to melt them, but this might become stupidly broken on beasts like Draigo who would become nigh invincible (if given the same rules)

I've been playing terminator armies since 3rd edition. Theres always been a give and take but for most of my gaming career TDA has been more about rock/paper/scissors rather than an optimal spot to be in. I don't seeing this changing anytime soon and nor would I want it to. TDA shouldn't be so good as to be prevalent in every army. Its incredibly rare and skill intensive. I like it that way.

 

I would not recommend changing core rules. TDA already ignores the majority of weaponry, giving it a boost to 1+ will have a ripple effect. Just accept that certain hard counters exist and try to prioritize those high for targeting.

 

Just my take.

[Quixus]

I would not recommend changing core rules. TDA already ignores the majority of weaponry, giving it a boost to 1+ will have a ripple effect. Just accept that certain hard counters exist and try to prioritize those high for targeting.

The problem is not the existence of hard counters but their prevalence and cheapness. Also 30 lasgun hits will kill 5 terminators on average.

[Brom MKIV]

Your right although I feel most ap2 weaponry is for the most part appropriately costed, and I don't feel there is a 'problem' except what is expected from a terminator. They are damn durable to plenty of things and very susceptible to a few but still have the X factor of an invuln/cover and various power weapons. They're really good. However, any high cost low model count unit is, by nature inherently risky and somewhat of a meta call. The predicted/established environment determines the value of everything. Its like saying the problem with hordes is the prevalence of wyverns.

 

Edit- got called away in the middle of a thought..

 

Point is most things have a problem, counter etc call it what you will. IMO thats healthy for the game. Its certain units that lack these things that skew the whole thing.

[boreas]

Quixus: 30 lasgun hits would result in 10 wounds (St3 vs T4) and 1.7 dead termi. To kill 5 termies, you need 30 wounds, that's 90 lasgun hits, that's 180 shots from average an Guard (or militarum, eh...).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The problem doesn't lie with Terminators really. Tac Terminators need to come down to 30ppm in vanilla Marines and the other variants. Deathwing should be only 40 at most. Our Terminators are fine. Stormhammers are fine, just as they have always been since 5th edition made their save 3++ and useable against shooting. 

 

The problem is GW's insane arms race with AP2. The proliferation of AP2 is the real issue. It should be kept only on Elites and Heavy Support, and as a support weapon on Marines (as their cost prevents spam). Xenos currently have an absurd amount of cheap and easily buffed AP2 platforms, which render the vast majority of Terminators non-viable. It makes a lot of Marine units equally bad. Combined with the reduction in cover saves, and Marines are really suffering from a disconnect between their cost point and their durability. 

 

On a personal level, I've always failed armour saves far more than invul on my Terminators. I'll roll four 1's out of six 2+ saves, but I'll pass five out of six 5+ invul saves. 

[Quozzo]

Our GKT are still the same cost as SW Terminators.  And now Sanguinary Guard (not Terminators, but the lighter more maneuverable version...) are also the same cost.

 

A 1+ Armour save makes perfect sense, and TDA should really have it.  It allows a save versus Plasma Weapons (and the suit were originally designed to work inside Plasma Reactor Cores...) and you still fail automatically on a roll of a 1.

 

So massed Lasguns/Bolters will kill just as many Terminators as before.

I feel that defeats the problem. Plasma. Just change plasma to AP3 and it will still affect PA and give TDA their 2+ save

 

 

I would not recommend changing core rules. TDA already ignores the majority of weaponry, giving it a boost to 1+ will have a ripple effect. Just accept that certain hard counters exist and try to prioritize those high for targeting.

The problem is not the existence of hard counters but their prevalence and cheapness. Also 30 lasgun hits will kill 5 terminators on average.

 

Isn't that 60/70 men? I do think that zergs should be able to defeat a terminator, it is a strategy that hordes army must employ. But the cheapness of the blobs compared to the terminators firepower is worrysome.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I feel that defeats the problem. Plasma. Just change plasma to AP3 and it will still affect PA and give TDA their 2+ save

 

 

Nah, plasma fills a role between the massed fire of other support weapons like heavy bolters and autocannon, and the precision anti-tank of lascannon and melta. Plasma should be AP2, but it shouldn't be so readily available. 

[Adeptus]

I agree that Plasma should be AP3.

 

If we assume that all units, broadly speaking, can be separated into following categories:

 

1 - Light infantry. Orks, Guardsmen, Guardians, etc

 

2 - Heavy infantry. Marines and their equivalents.

 

3 - Very Heavy Infantry. Terminators and their equivalent.

 

Then we must examine the pro's and con's of each category and why they exist.

 

Light infantry are numerous and cheap. They laugh in the face of heavy weapons that lack the rate of fire to hurt them, but are destroyed by weapons that fire lots of shots.

 

Heavy infantry are the middle ground. They won't die as fast to weapons with a high rate of fire, but will die faster (proportionately) to heavier weapons with a lower rate of fire.

 

Very heavy infantry should be nearly immune to lighter weapons, and require the heaviest of weapons to take them out.

 

Unfortunately, the ubiquitous plasma gun/cannon kills both heavy infantry and very heavy infantry at the same rate, making it a no-brainer choice. It will even glance vehicles up to AV13, so it eclipses the Autocannon in effectiveness. If the plasma gun were reduced to AP3 it would retain it's middle-ground role, killing heavy infantry at the same rate it does now, but it would be harder to justify it's inclusion in your lists because it would not be effective at dealing with 2+ save units. This would also narrow the gap in effectiveness between tactical terminators and TH/SS termies.

[Quozzo]

You could give the plasma rending so it will have the possibility to kill terminators and/or destroy vehicles in one hit.

High strength low AP weapons are too numerous. It's either got AP2 or AP3 or nothing that we care about. It's a huge difference between weapons, even AP4 and AP5, but is something that is not considered in their accessibility or price.

One of the problems is that terminators also get wiped off due to high volumes of fire. One of the suggestions I made in another thread was to give terminators a rerollable armour save compared to the strength of the weapon. It works similar to BS above 5 so...

I think having a rerollable armour save would be best, but the reroll is dependant on the strength of the weapon, similar to BS but the other way around. Strength 1 weapons are shrugged off, strength 2 require a 2+, strength 3 require a 3+ etc. Strength 7+ doesnt get a reroll. This will alleviate the problems somewhat of small arms fire as its effectively FNP, while the heavy hitters are still able to kill a terminator relatively easier.

Strength	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
TDA Save	N/A	2+/2+	2+/3+	2+/4+	2+/5+	2+/6+	2+	2+	2+	2+

Weapon AP	1	2	3	4	5	6	-	
TDA SAve	-	-	2+/6+	2+/5+	2+/4+	2+/3+	2+/2+	

Of course if something is AP2 then it will simply go through the armour save :/ hence why I think plasma should be AP3

As weapons need to fired separately it will be easy to see at a glance which rolls are not saved and reroll.

I also thoughit might be better to base the reroll on the AP of the weapon instead of strength so I added it to the chart above. Not sure what the effect of that is as I haven't done the math yet. Just use one or the other, not both (unless you really like TDA )

[Captain Coolpants]

Ap3 plasma would make people need to take some grav as well to deal with terminators (for marine dexs anyway) which instantly makes a ballance between weapons. And will stop making plasma a no brainer.

 

 

And terminators dying to weight of dice is probably something we just have to live with. It's pointless making this complicated game even more so with more rules...

 

Narrative thinking could be that the masses of las shots could just heat up the armour so much, that it just cooks the guy inside, or the hail of bolts could just so happen to pen the joints of the armour or get him right through the eye glass.

[Brom MKIV]

Ap2 brings with it a certain shock factor but I'm certain the majority of my termies over the years have died to torrenting, whether ranged or combat. Now I'm not saying this is the case for everyone.. small local metas specifically are probably skewed because they can 'dial in' on a regular GK/DW opponent and just spam the hard counters. 

 

 

If we wanna get to the root of the 'problem' though its perception, because its not durability thats the issue its cost vs. damage output and mobility. Its the expectation that comes with a 200 pt price tag. The combination of these is what keeps terminators from being auto includes or even from being 'competitive'. 

 

 

jeffersonion000 hit the nail on the head with what he said below: 

The price drop from 40ppm to 33ppm was a huge improvement in midiigating the problems all TDA suffer in the game, however, it is the ppm reduction AND being a Troop choice that makes them useable and "good". At 33ppm + upgrades, our GKT fill the role Tac Squads fill in other Marine armies, which means that our "Tac Marines" wear TDA and have Force weapons.

Evern if the other Marine TDA did drop to 30-35ppm, they would still be fighting for an Elite slot, still have a bad weapon mix (Tac Termies; Assault Termies are a different story), and still not as good as Centurions. The ppm reduction works for GK because our guys already were Troops, our Strikers got nerfed hard, and even at 33ppm they have Force weapons, a PML, and one of the best all-purpose range weapons in the game (Psycannons). Regular Marine TDA can't compete.

SJ

This will always be the case in a shooting and movement based game. Cost and damage output is what matters most followed closely by mobility. The golden trifecta if you will. 

 

In terms of evaluating a units potential I would say that: damage output > cost > mobility > defense.

I'm sure there are corner cases worth arguing about but for the most part this holds true.

Lastly FOC occupation does come into play as the X factor because its harder to quantify and is very list/faction/army dependent, but troops is the most obvious and easiest to evaluate.

 

 

To put it into perspective lets consider centurions for a moment. Over twice the cost per model of a terminator and without an invuln, DS or the ability to run, yet their damage output is simply unprecedented. This alone is enough to outweigh their cost and mobility and make them better than TDA, regardless of FOC slot. 

 

Conversely lets consider land raiders. High durability, med- high mobility and comparable cost to both TDA and centurions (talking ballpark here). They get wrecked by melta in a similar fashion to how TDA/cents get wrecked by ap2, but even in the absence of melta they just aren't very good. Reason is the damage output. LRs just don't do enough to justify the expenditure. 

 

Lastly lets consider the X factor..

would troops LRs (not DTs but straight troops) be more worthwhile? Yes, but not because the unit became better. Its simply because you can deduct the cost of the cheapest compulsory choice from the cost of the LR. At some point though they would still suffer from diminishing returns which would likely be the cutoff point of compulsory choices. This is why GK terminators are 'good' as jeffersonian000 stated above.

[Quozzo]

Our Terminators are worth it, simply because the price difference between GKT and PAGK are thin, and you can use Psycannons with them. No justicar tax, no weapons tax as everything uses the same list. Had psycannons been their old assault 2/heavy 4 profile you would see a lot more PAGK on the table.

 

In terms of evaluating a units potential I would say that: damage output > cost > mobility > defense.

It's funny you mention that, as the only differance between our troops choices is the armour save, for which you pay extra for, well that and useful psycannons. (opposite ends of the spectrum.)

 

It's not so much that terminators are good now; their force swords don't do anything, daemonbane became worse, hammers actually cost points now (and cost us more than last edition if you use a full of them) although the psycannon did come down in price. Terminator are just the lesser of two evils. It's not really a choice if you have to go one way or the other. Other chapters don't need to make that decision, they can pick centurions or sternguard or TWC instead. Blood Angels terminators didn't get a price reduction and they are seldom used, better choices. Not for us though :/ Sang Guard were the same cost as our terminators last edition, and got a price reduction to the same cost as out terminators this edition, the flying terminators as they're known, and are the go-to guys. There's even a whole formation built especially for them.

 

TL;DR: Terminators are not good, they're just a better opportunity cost than strikes.