aceytrixx Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Honestly I'd be ok with this plan as long as the supplements/dataslates either come out with the codex or not long after. eapecially of it leads to more options for slaanesh cult troops/terminators even bikers and such if they really went all out with real differences from standard marine bikers (things like hit and run maybe) and each other cult getting their own differences but only applicable where a whole army is devoted to that particular god to stop picking and choosing the best of each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I really think a mirror of chapter tactics or something similar would be loved by all. Eg: Death Guard Tactics - all units have fnp 6+, cannot be overrun in combat, independent characters have iwnd, can take plague Marines as an elite choice, unlocks Typhus and so on... Black Legion Tactics - all units can re roll morale and pinning Checks, can re roll to hit on the charge in close combat, can re roll reserve rolls of 1 So on and so forth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Still I do not see it as a bad thing. A basic, leaner codex for the Chaos Space Marines, with an additional set of rules, formations and dataslates for the legion purists. I find it a good deal (and if all is digital all the better). I view it as a pretty bad thing. Cult units are some pretty fundamental units for the faction thematically. Moving them to a limited availability white dwarf run, along with requiring players to bring even more rule books to the table, is kind of terrible, honestly. But even that I could tolerate, were it not for the rest of the rumors - that apart from this removal the rest of the codex would be left essentially unchanged. Taking a terrible, boring book, and 'fixing' it by chopping bits of is just insulting. Not that I believe these rumors, honestly. We've been getting 100% bullhonkey chaos marine rumors just about every other month for like two years, half of it over optimistic wishlisting and half of it overly pessimistic grousing. I have no reason to think this latest rumor will prove to be any more accurate than the white dwarf chaos vet skill / legion tactics rumor from a few months back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 My argument is that asking a book to represent five different game styles which should be "different" and not a mere variant of a list is the reason why Chaos was always seen as a book without a focus. Sure some will point at the SM book but they have chapter tactics, they do not have, on the other hand, units dedicated at excelling at a single role or against a specific army type. The problem with the cult troops is that they build on a bad base to begin with. If the core unit is lacking and someone needs to supplement it with a far pricey elite it means that is the core that is broken and not the "cult" layer on top of it. Truth be told, I think that a basic reshuffling of the points can do us much more good than a complete overhaul of the army mechanics. If the game designers decided that we will have to roll on the daemonic gift table, than so be it, but make it more leaner, more interesting. If the game developer likes us to duel for the glory in the eyes of the Dark Gods than so be it, but allow us to perform reliably in the arena of single combat. It is tweaks that we need, small, subtle tweaks across our book. A lowering of some point prices, perhaps an USR here and there, but not a drastic overhaul. What we need to obtain from GW is a revision of our army list and its units and make them all viable, not strong, but viable. I think that this is what will happen in the end. We will see some point drops here and there, a removal of redundant options like too many rolls on the daemonic table. Perhaps we will be graced with a "faction" weapon like the grav gun for the loyalists, but at the end of the day, I am content if the developers take every unit under the spyglass and see its points toned down, perhaps add to it an option or two or shuffle it a bit. If they keep the good options like Spawn, Maulerfiends, Obliterators and so on as they are it is good, no problems here, no change is even needed. Which leaves them to shuffle a bit with less attractive units which are thematic too. I expect a remake of the Mutilator unit entry, a shuffling for the Chosen, perhaps a slight improvement (or lower cost) for the Dark Apostle and the Warpsmith and so on... Tweaking, even small tweaking, is good for us. It is not that they need to scrap our entire book, but surely a few units could use some love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If it's true then it's apparent Games Workshop would rather everybody just give up playing Chaos and buy the latest variety of Loyalist "It's Codex: Space Marine They turn 40k into marine vs marine, fantasy gets scrapped after the end times finishes... In the far future of 2016 there is only horus heresy. Considering how much I find myself fighting some variety of Loyalist Marine, coupled with the chance of the Fantasy rumours being true, I honestly wouldn't put it past them to make 30k a 'Main line' game alongside Fantasy. Shift production from exclusive Forge World to the standard lines, allow you to use 40k models to a degree... ...At least we'd get Legion rules then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you don't want to compare to marines, then compare to eldar. Many specialist units (cults have always been more or less 'chaos marine aspect warriors'), wide variety of themes and play styles (mixed, jet bike, aspect, ghost armies, guardians/rangers/warlocks), all fitting within one book. Sure one bit or another of it is usually just better than the rest in any given book. One can't ask for internal balance from a company that doesn't do competitive testing, and increasingly doesn't seem to do any testing at all. But the point is that variety can still fit in a single book if the designers want it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceytrixx Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 via Steve the Warboss 1-9-2015 Further clarifications for CSM Cult Marines -No own Profiles/Choices for Cult Marines in the Codex -Cult Marines are "upgrades" for the most of the CSM Units via Nostromodamus 1-9-2015 Since we are on the subject concerning cult troops, besides remakes of the infantry, there will be Cult Terminators for World Eaters and Death Guard. No Terminators for the other two Gods (as of now) but there will be a cavalry unit for Slaanesh Couple rumours I just read on spikeybits. Definitely interesting if these pan out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Don't forget the pinch of salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Man at rhis stage in the game I have zero expectations. I've been off course since third edition. I literally wouldn't be surprised by anything at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Cult Terminators would be an obvious choice for them to develop, as it's minimal changes to the existing range, and thus easier to both design, and get into production with a minimal amount of wastage from manufacturing cock ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I think the odds of cult specific terminator models are about zero. Same models, different paintscheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxoblivionxx33 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 are we supposed to be getting a new dex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allart01 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I really like the idea of cult units not having entries of their own, but being instead an upgrade for "any" unit in the codex. I always tought my ac 4 non-fearless Terminators/Raptors/Bikes/Whaterver made little sense among an horde of berserkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctem Cultor Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I hope these rumours mean we will see a Traitor Marine Codex with Chaos and Legion supplements /dataslates. The distinction between traitor/renegade and Chaos is needed. I'm sure Excommunicate Traitoris Astartes can be a copyright title as that's how GW are leaning no days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxoblivionxx33 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Id like to preface before my comment; I'm not a GW basher, but sometimes they do things that I face palm to. While the game isn't perfect, I do enjoy there models , game and what the kits bring in the form of a hobbying experience. I do feel though that GW missed a mark when they didn't do a "chapter tactics" for the chaos legions in the CSM codex as they did for Space marines. Now I'm not saying they need to do a lot; but for the main ones it would be really nice(i.e black legion, night lords, sons, death guard, emperors children). I wouldn't even expect them to come out with kits for each legion, just the legion specific rules and benefits. It would open up a lot more people to custom converting and modelling. just my .02 cents.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 I will be interested in seeing how it works out if they do make cult troops as upgrades to normal CSM. That would mean that cult units are likely troops, and therefore objective secured. Formations are always a dice roll to see if you get something mediocre or amazing. I am sure that CSM will get a bunch of new formations, and at least some of them should be strong. I am hoping that between whatever changes we get to CSM and the new formations, we will ultimately be stronger than we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 If cult units are gonna become an upgrade to the regular units im hoping its not going to become you buy said unit mark of khorne they become bezerkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I would really love to see a generic "cult" upgrade for all units. Runic bikers, Berzerker Raptors, Noise Terminators... well you get the idea. It would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40kChrista Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I would really love to see a generic "cult" upgrade for all units. Runic bikers, Berzerker Raptors, Noise Terminators... well you get the idea. It would be awesome. So in a way it would be like the Books of Chaos from 3.5, especially if there were limits on which units could be made cult or resections to the unit if it was upgraded to a cult. Intriguing, but like everything with Chaos rumors... I'll believe it when I actually see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I have to agree with Malisteen. We do need synergy, but cutting cult units would be like removing deathwing or death company, as well as not achieving the effect at making basic marines any more viable. Streamlining is not a one direction fix, and its just as easy to create a empty, beaurocratic fed mess that's lean with the intent to fill a badly made decision they made for a previous decade. Moving them to a secondary source like WD or a supp would make me quit altogether. Seriously can't fathom how you make these calculations in good concious when they only serve to make the game worse Tenebris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I don't mind if it's Chaos Space Marines as the basic choice, and adding a mark makes them into that Cult troop, rather than a marked CSM. I fundamentally disagree as stated with the idea of removing them totally - so I'm just hoping it'll be fine. I can't imagine a Codex without them unless we get a Death Guard or Thousand Sons Codex akin to loyalist counterparts. Easiest way to solve it? Legion tactics as mentioned by others - gives that diversity and benefit of playing a legion. It's all well and good stating Chaos Space Marines are the core, but Plague Marines are the core of my legion - and I would want to represent that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 The following is not a wish list, but theorising on how it could work if cult units were removed from the codex: If they reworked the Mark system into different levels like the Daemons codex removing cult marines might work. Lesser Mark of Nurgle : +1 T (creates units blessed by Nurgle) Greater Mark of Nurgle : +1 T, FNP and access to the Cult of Nurgle Armoury (creates fully dedicated to Nurgle, ie "Plague Marines, Plague Bikers, Plague Whatever" Exalted Mark of Nurgle : +1 T, FNP, and access to the Cult of Nurgle Armoury and Cult of Nurgle GIfts (special class available to HQs) (or some similar progression that could build up to where cult troops are now) Then you could use different methods to restrict or unlock levels of reward, such as: Any unit in a could take Lesser Marks Greater Marks are only allowed for Elites unless an HQ shares at least a the same level of Greater Mark Detachments with an HQ that uses an Exalted Mark cannot include units with a different god's Mark than their own, or ally with a detachment involving units having an opposite alignment (Exalted Nurgle Lord cannot ally with Rubric Marines or Noise Marines but can ally with a detachment of Berserkers or other MoK units) and the allied detachment may not include HQ with an Exalted Mark Taking Abaddon lets you use Marks of different gods in the same detachment as well as allied detachments with Exalted Marks because of his Mark of Chaos Ascendant. The named characters would have the equivalent of Exalted Marks in their special rules based on whichever god they are aligned with. They could then release Cult Troop kits that included 5 marines along with extra upgrade sprues to outfit marines with Lesser Marks as well. Like for Nurgle you get 5 basic Greater Mark troops (classic Plague Marines) as well as extra heads and shoulder pads that are Nurgle themed to add to the box of regular CSM PA to flesh out your army with Lesser Mark troops. Easily charge $50 for that like the current Vanguard or Sternguard boxes. Plastic clamp packs for themed lord/champion, one for each God. Current upgrade sprues and cult troops boxes dropped. That's how I could see GW getting rid of Cult Troops as an independent option while at the same time making the codex better for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasclomalum Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 An The following is not a wish list, but theorising on how it could work if cult units were removed from the codex: If they reworked the Mark system into different levels like the Daemons codex removing cult marines might work. Lesser Mark of Nurgle : +1 T (creates units blessed by Nurgle) Greater Mark of Nurgle : +1 T, FNP and access to the Cult of Nurgle Armoury (creates fully dedicated to Nurgle, ie "Plague Marines, Plague Bikers, Plague Whatever" Exalted Mark of Nurgle : +1 T, FNP, and access to the Cult of Nurgle Armoury and Cult of Nurgle GIfts (special class available to HQs) (or some similar progression that could build up to where cult troops are now) Another, perhaps slightly more streamlined possibility is to allow the Lesser Mark of Nurgle for everyone sans World Eaters/Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons/(maybe) Word Bearers and pretty much make the benefits of Greater/Exalted Mark of Nurgle part of Death Guard legion tactics. So Death Guard have the best Nurgle marines, Iron Warriors get a lesser version (but have other things to make up for it) etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Another, perhaps slightly more streamlined possibility is to allow the Lesser Mark of Nurgle for everyone sans World Eaters/Emperor's Children/Thousand Sons/(maybe) Word Bearers and pretty much make the benefits of Greater/Exalted Mark of Nurgle part of Death Guard legion tactics. So Death Guard have the best Nurgle marines, Iron Warriors get a lesser version (but have other things to make up for it) etc etc. I don't think they will give us Legion Tactics. One of the reasons for that is that I believe that GW sees the combinations of Marks and VotLW as being our version of that. I think they might include formations based on certain ideas from the Legions. Formations don't come too close to the loyalist special rules like Legion Tactics would, and they have the bonus of driving model sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 If we place ourselves in the developers skin here is what I do expect them to do as recent rumors unfold. Mark of Tzeentch = Bolt Weapons are AP 3, +1 Mastery Level on the Aspiring Champion, Mark of Nurgle = +1 Toughness, Feel No Pain, Melee weapons are Poisoned Mark of Khorne = +1 Weapon Skill, Rage, Counterattack Mark of Slaanesh = +1 Initiative, access to Sonic Weapons, Outflank In my opinion there will be only four marks/upgrades which you would be able to buy for every infantry unit in the codex. A separate mark will be used for the vehicle variant. The rest will be formations. I think that if any upgrades will be done will be basic, generic and very few, leaving to formations and supplement to provide "thematic" rules. A basic tribute would be in the book for the four chaos gods but I do not expect a focus on this aspect. I would love to see "Thousand Sons/Mark of Tzeentch" Raptors with AP 3 bolt pistols and a Mastery Level 1 on the Aspiring Champion with a Force Weapon. That would be awesome (and nasty if not expensive in points). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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