Largest and Most Powerful Legion Flagships

[Dono1979]

The Eternal Crusader can carry twice as many Marines as most battle-barges (most can carry three companies plus vehicles and support). 

 

It was called the Eternal Crusader: a vast battle-barge, the mightiest of its type ever built, ten kilometres long, whose keel was laid in the inconceivable past.

 

I don't think that "type" has ever been identified, but that's less than half the size of a Gloriana:

 

Macragge’s Honour. Twenty-six kilometres of polished ceramite and steel armour.

 

(40k ship dimensions have been all over the place over the years, but these are both recent sources: Eternal Crusader and Know No Fear.)

 

 

So considering that the Eternal Crusader was the Flagship of the Black Templars since their creation and as such would have been Sigismunds Flagship once he was High Marshal, would it be a reasonable assumption that Sigismund had control of the Eternal Crusader BEFORE the creation of the Black Templars, back when he was simply the 1st Captain of the Templars themselves?

 

Add to that, considering his high position within the Fists, would the original incarnation of the Eternal Crusader quite possibly have been one of the ten variant Victory class Battleships which were made at Inwit, Polux's Tribune being one of them?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The Eternal Crusader can carry twice as many Marines as most battle-barges (most can carry three companies plus vehicles and support). 

 

It was called the Eternal Crusader: a vast battle-barge, the mightiest of its type ever built, ten kilometres long, whose keel was laid in the inconceivable past.

 

I don't think that "type" has ever been identified, but that's less than half the size of a Gloriana:

 

Macragge’s Honour. Twenty-six kilometres of polished ceramite and steel armour.

 

(40k ship dimensions have been all over the place over the years, but these are both recent sources: Eternal Crusader and Know No Fear.)

 

 

So considering that the Eternal Crusader was the Flagship of the Black Templars since their creation and as such would have been Sigismunds Flagship once he was High Marshal, would it be a reasonable assumption that Sigismund had control of the Eternal Crusader BEFORE the creation of the Black Templars, back when he was simply the 1st Captain of the Templars themselves?

 

Add to that, considering his high position within the Fists, would the original incarnation of the Eternal Crusader quite possibly have been one of the ten variant Victory class Battleships which were made at Inwit, Polux's Tribune being one of them?

 

 

The answer to that begs the question, does it have a command throne? If it does, it is not Inwitan, if it does not, it is Inwitan. Part of the naval power legacy of Inwit was that shipmasters command on their feet. 

[Dono1979]

Hard to tell, as the evolution of the Eternal Crusader was quite substantial over the 10,000 years, quite conceivable that a command throne was latter installed. And as there is no solid fluff on which (if any?) ship Sigismund commanded that gives no hints either.

[Hyaenidae]

I don't think they did kick butt during the fight, I mean I believe most of the damage to the imperial fist fleet was when they were ordered to withdraw. It states if they had continued to fight it's entirely possible the Imperial Fists would of beaten the Iron Warriors.

 

No sir, the Iron Warriors would have wiped them out to the last man, bar none. The difference was that Polux had devised a genius plan that would have seen Perturabo dead, had it been allowed to play out. It still would have cost the VII a full third of their Legion in their entirety, with all gene seed lost, and a high number of their most effective fleet ships gutted and burning.

 

But a traitor Primarch would have been dead.

 

With Polux recieving the "phone home" message from Dorn, that unraveled this suicide mission, and that speaks to his value as a fleet commander for being able to withdraw anybody at all.

 

The Iron Warriors crushed them, period. But it nearly cost them everything.

 

 

 

Anyway I digress, I don't think the Iron Blood was any stronger than most of the other legion capital ships, as far as I'm aware most were built to specifications of the legion, so Iron Hands, Salamanders, Death Guard and Iron Warriors were sturdier, White Scars were swifter and had improved engines, Raven Guard were fitted for Stealth etc etc none of them though truly brought something new to the field imo apart from the conqueror atm which had the giant ursus claws.

 

Much like the many "Which Primarch/Legion is the best" threads that pop up from time to time, there is no solid answer. It quickly becomes a "my daddy can beat up your daddy" argument, because every Legion, their fleet, and their lieges have their strengths and weaknesses.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The Eternal Crusader can carry twice as many Marines as most battle-barges (most can carry three companies plus vehicles and support). 

 

*snip*

 

See, I'm becoming more uncertain about whether the 3 company + support thing really applied during the Heresy. There are a couple of pages in Extermination that detail the different classifications of ships in the Legiones Astartes, and the description of Battle Barges simply states the term applies to any Battleship-sized vessel specifically purposed with boarding and planetary invasion over long-ranged space engagements.

 

Considering Battleships have crews of tens / hundreds of thousands, I find it hard to believe they'd all only have a capacity of 300 marines. When chapters are pretty much small fry in 30k, requiring 3+ capital ships to ferry 1000 marines about seems a little iffy. I'd suggest the smallest Battle Barges have a capacity of 300 Legionaries, whereas the largest might be able to carry anything between 3000 to 10,000 or even more (besides, this size class includes Goliath factory ships, which are basically void-mobile manufactorums).

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you think of the size of the legions, even the largest like the Ultramarines, putting 10,000 marines onto one vessel is a huge portion of the legions military might. While the size of the legions means that it's going to be quite hard to rationalise the frontage, cover and speed of a legion, to put 1/25th of their military power into one ship (which, despite being designed to run the gauntlet of planetary defences, is at risk of being destroyed by that power) is a bit foolish.

 

Considering that it's commonly said that a Company of Space Marines can conquer a world (in 40K), then 10,000 space marines is major Expeditionary force. It's unlikely that a legion would risk those 10,000 on just the one ship, and would spread it over the number of ships they have access to - likely having 3-4 capital ships with 1-2,000 on board at most, with the lesser ships/allies having perhaps as little as a dozen astartes to act as elite counter-boarding operatives or the vessel's lifeguard.

 

While they can maybe fit more marines for full capacity, it's less tactically viable to do so.

[Slips]

Another iffy thing to consider is that, of the legions, the Imperial Fists had the largest at 1500 ships - not all of them Transporting Astartes.

 

They're estimated as having numbered 100k Marines so, being rather generous and saying that 1000 of those ships can/do carry Astartes, thats an average of 100 Astartes per ship.

 

I might also be entirely wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about :p

[Lucien Eilam]

See, I'm becoming more uncertain about whether the 3 company + support thing really applied during the Heresy.

 

I wasn't saying that. The size of the Eternal Crusader though was only established in reference to other 40k era battle-barges, so that typical capacity is relevant.

 

Strictly speaking, the capacity of a battle-barge was specified in terms of how many it can simultaneously deploy, not theoretically carry. If they crammed every mile of corridor to capacity, it might be able to carry several entire Chapters, it just wouldn't be practical for purposes of waging a Space Marine war. It's an assault craft, not merely a transport. You wouldn't want to lose whole companies with a ship just because they couldn't pass through the muster decks, launch tubes, hangars, etc. in time.

 

The Astral Knights managed to "barely" fit ~900 Space Marines (almost no vehicles or "other heavy equipment") on the muster decks of the Battle-Barge Tempestus before crashing it into the World Engine, so that's probably your theoretical upper limit for a typical 40k era barge, assuming you only take infantry and your deployment strategy is to climb out of the wreckage.

[Dono1979]

Exactly, it isnt about how many Marines the ship can carry, it is about how many they can deploy in a rapid assault situation which is what they specialised in.

 

Whilst a single capital ship might be able to hold 10,000 marines, it would take that ship ten times longer to deploy them all compared to having ten capital ships only carrying 1,000 each.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Yeah, in terms of the 10,000, I was only really thinking about each Legion's Flagship - realistically, I'd imagine 1000 is probably the normal limit - frankly being able to transport / deploy an entire chapter from one vessel could be pretty useful. With the size these ships are supposed to be, I'm doubtful a simultaneous launch of 1000 Legionaries would be difficult considering the fact Stormbirds which carry 100 marines were pretty standard (plus ships which can be up to two dozen kilometers long have more than sufficient surface area for launch bays / tubes / whatever).

 

The way I see it is that there would be 4 'tiers' of Battle Barge:

 

Primary - Legion Flaghsips (e.g Gloriana Class) - entirely variable troop capacity

 

Secondary - 'Chapter Barques' - capacity of roughly 1000 marines & their wargear

 

Tertiary - capacity of approx 500, so can carry a full Battalion - useful when sending detachments to different Expeditionary Fleets / other Legions

 

Quaternary - capacity of 300, as common in 40k - primarily for specialist formations (e.g armoured divisions) or smaller splinter fleets

[Operative]

Does anyone know what sort of chapter assets (vehicles and the like) and munitions would be transported on a battle barge?

[Conn Eremon]

Do you have Betrayal? I would assume that the chart provided on Terran Legion organization would be an appropriate answer.

 

If not, I can look it up later.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Even 1000 is pushing it. That is a force which can conquer an entire system, according to Dorn, I believe.

 

For 1000 to be on anything but the absolute largest is a massive undertaking. Assuming that the legion operates with a typical quarterly break down of fighting forces at one time, that's 250 Marines which would need to be deployed at anyone time from one ship. In the days of the legions resources are not as rare in 40K, but even so, having 9 Thunderhawks or 25 Drop Pods all land at a target location, plus having support vehicles like Fire Raptors (modern transport to gunship ratio was 2 Apache to 1 Chinook in Afghanistan; although a Storm Eagle, Caestus or Thunderhawk is much more heavily armed and armoured, even a 1:1 or even 1:2 ratio is a lot) in the air, associated other support troops including vehicles (Rhino based = 2 per Transporter, Land Raider or Spartan = 1:1, Fellblade hull = special superheavy transport) - Grav vehicles aren't void capable, and even those that aren't probably cannot get the required break out speed nor survive reentry so they need transport.

 

To physically get those 250 people into a location, doing a combat insertion like they were famed for, that requires coordination with shipborne gunnery teams - but from according to books regarding parachuting, a drop zone for around 30 people on a HALO drop was over a kilometer - having to get 25 Drop Pods to all land in that area while under fire requires an effective suppression from the orbital vessel - which would inevitably have to line up a second wave of units (hence the 1/4 "rule").

 

In 40k where resources are scarce, and the might of Gloriana class vessels for the Space Marines are little more than a wet dream, the Battlebarge is the pinnacle of the SM's arsenal - and is the ultimate blockade runner, designed to withstand impacts from a major orbital/planetary based defense systems, fight off the effects of low orbit stresses on its hull, disgorge its passengers and then power out again. They have to maximise that surgical needle thrust the lines - the Alpha Legion, White Scars, Ultramarines, Raven Guard and Night Lords seem especially competent at it - and they need to be able to get the most punch for their time in orbit - effectively glass cannons. Like a needle, they focus all of their force on a single point.

 

In 30K, though, when faced with an enemy stronghold world, they typically have a dozen other capital vessels with them, containing Titan Legions, Solar Auxilia, Knight Households, and other, lesser Imperial Excertus assets - and that's for each single legion vessel. When you're talking about Expeditionary Fleets joined by the Primarchs or the Emperor, you're talking about Capital vessels numbering in the high tens, if not hundreds, which can just bludgeon aside any defences - and this includes said wet-dream Gloriana class ships - which need to be catered for in the defences of worlds - so extremely highly powered weaponry.

 

If a ship has the entirety of the fleets deployable legion assets in one ship, and said ship gets crippled, (engines hit, or even completely destroyed), that is a vital physical combat effectiveness and morale blow for the fleet. If said ship gets cut out, rather than costing 10,000 marines, it "only" costs 1,000 say, while 9000 others stand ready to deploy via alternative method.

[Marshal Rohr]

That Guy Haley novel also mentioned portions of the Eternal Crusader haven't been used in centuries. I'd imagine most battle barges are similarly decrepit in 40K. We are talking about ships that haven't been used properly in 10,000 years and act as glorified shuttle craft. The inherent weaknesses of codex doctrines for meaningful strategic application force space marines to suck by law. The abilities of a 40K chapter in comparison to their much stronger precursor legions is pointless. Chapters are feeble and intentionally hamstrung for stupid reasons in and out of the universe. It's best to leave them for dead.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I don't think anyone was.

 

And having the ability to do something as opposed to sound tactical sense is one counterpoint.

[Daemon2027]

In terms of the Alpha Legion's ships, I wouldn be surrprised if the name Alpha and Beta would transfer from ship to ship depending on the mission. I could easily imagine there being several XX Legion ships with the name Alpha in operation across the galaxy at the same time. They are noted to have a veteran fleet despite the relative youth of the Legion, and, with thier advanced, and unkown, ability to produce war materials I wouldnt be surrprised if they had several large vessals to call upon. Thier, style, would proabally see them use smaller ships to overwhealm and destroy though. Of course this is just my opinion.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

In terms of the Alpha Legion's ships, I wouldn be surrprised if the name Alpha and Beta would transfer from ship to ship depending on the mission. I could easily imagine there being several XX Legion ships with the name Alpha in operation across the galaxy at the same time. They are noted to have a veteran fleet despite the relative youth of the Legion, and, with thier advanced, and unkown, ability to produce war materials I wouldnt be surrprised if they had several large vessals to call upon. Thier, style, would proabally see them use smaller ships to overwhealm and destroy though. Of course this is just my opinion.

 

Well in Scars they point out the Alpha Legion are very adept at 'faking' large vessels, so that veteran fleet could be all smokes and mirriors :)

[Operative]

That Guy Haley novel also mentioned portions of the Eternal Crusader haven't been used in centuries. I'd imagine most battle barges are similarly decrepit in 40K. We are talking about ships that haven't been used properly in 10,000 years and act as glorified shuttle craft. The inherent weaknesses of codex doctrines for meaningful strategic application force space marines to suck by law. The abilities of a 40K chapter in comparison to their much stronger precursor legions is pointless. Chapters are feeble and intentionally hamstrung for stupid reasons in and out of the universe. It's best to leave them for dead.

Even In Angel Exterminatus on board the Iron Blood, the huge area for the remembrancers was left untended and in a decrepit state, so it doesn't even need to take 10,000 years necessarily. Also I seem to remember in Fear To Tread there being a scene where one of the apothecaries is exercising in an empty part of the Red Tear that no one visits. 

[Conn Eremon]

200 years is a long time. Imagine going into one of the first factories, that hasn't had a human presence for a 150 years. It'll look like it has been abandoned since forever.

[Daemon2027]

 

In terms of the Alpha Legion's ships, I wouldn be surrprised if the name Alpha and Beta would transfer from ship to ship depending on the mission. I could easily imagine there being several XX Legion ships with the name Alpha in operation across the galaxy at the same time. They are noted to have a veteran fleet despite the relative youth of the Legion, and, with thier advanced, and unkown, ability to produce war materials I wouldnt be surrprised if they had several large vessals to call upon. Thier, style, would proabally see them use smaller ships to overwhealm and destroy though. Of course this is just my opinion.

 

 

Well in Scars they point out the Alpha Legion are very adept at 'faking' large vessels, so that veteran fleet could be all smokes and mirriors :)

True, I persumed this was because their main fleet was engaging the Space Wolves. Also, and this is my own theory, I think one of the two Primarchs, probally Omegon, wanted the White Scars to move on.