Tenebris Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Greetings. Recently I have been playing quite a lot of D&D and when I was devising my character to roleplay (a LE human cleric) I could not but extend the concept to my favorite faction. The alignment in D&D is a set of values and morals distributed into a clear table. Have a look here. Now the question is, in which of those nine categories belong the traitor legions? Here is "my" interpretation: Lawful Evil: - Word Bearers - Thousand Sons - Iron Warriors Neutral Evil: - Black Legion - Alpha Legion - Night Lords Chaotic Evil: - Emperor's Children - Death Guard - World Eaters This is how I see the alignment of the chaos legions in general. The Lawful Evil being the sort of organized, learned and effective collective of villains sees the Word Bearers as its premium exponent, followed by the Thousand Sons who are organized, rational and involved and ending with the Iron Warriors who exemplify the creed of organization and meticulous warfare. The Neutral Evil camp is paraded by the Black Legion, followed by the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords. This three legions are what I call the "opportunistic" villain. They are not into chaos for chaos itself but because of the minor or major benefits they get from its use or weaponization. Their is a parasitic relationship with Chaos in general for this three are quite the pragmatic legions. The Chaotic Evil legions are exactly the wild aspect of Chaos and of astartes warfare. The Emperor's Children are indeed a cultured people but they are deviants all, same can be said for the World Eaters. The Death Guard is chaotic, gregarious and very much random in who they fight or "bless" with the touch of Nurgle. Bear in mind this does not mean unorganized but it means very individualistic, ambitious, extreme. Sure, a cross argument can be made for the Iron Warriors and the Thousands Sons because they fill several concepts at once but in broad terms one cannot expect two of the most celebral legions to approach to warfare or the persecution of their goals with anything other than cold, ruthless logic and a great deal of planning, organizing, managing. Keep in mind, here we speak of the "broad" concepts of the main traitor legions, not the singular warbands which can easily follow a different creed or approach. So what is your opinion on all of this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I always enjoy your threads. I agree completely. Although maybe the alpha legion are in the first group? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 4, 2015 Author Share Posted January 4, 2015 The Alpha Legion is also quite across the table I dare say but in terms of Lawful Evil we must also observe the "lawful" part, which means playing by the rules, honoring a pact, using or abusing the laws for your benefit, also having quite a hierarchical structure. The Alpha Legion is far from "lawful" since they are actually the ones who bend rules and concepts as a way to prove a point. It should be noted that while a highly organized faction, the lines of the Alpha Legion structure are blurred, it is the trait of the XXth legion, to be a malleable force, unbound by dogma or doctrine, willing to use everything for an advantage in battle, willing to break the rules and concepts, that is their creed. Sincerely I think that the Alpha Legion is perhaps even a better exemplar of the Neutral Evil faction than the Black Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909153 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Good point! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I like the concept but I disagree with some of those placings. I'd put the Black Legion at the very top of the lawful evil category purely for the fact that they're unified under one person: Abaddon although I do take your point about their "relationship" with Chaos. I think there's certainly Warlords who disdain the power of the Warp and everything that goes with it but you've got a large number who actively chase it's rewards/punishments. That being said I think their organisation alone is merit for including them there.. At a bare minimum the Word Bearers are split between those loyal to Erebus or Kor Phaeron and however many others but given their devotion to the Powers I'd say it's a justified position. Iron Warriors.......not sold on to be honest. They're just as fragmented as the rest of the Nine Legions but their consummate approach to warfare from it's planning through to application is a plus point in their favour. Imo the Thousand Sons are the classic neutrals: you've got all of them who have almost stumbled onto the path of damnation through misfortune/hubris/circumstances/machinations and now are left picking up the pieces - the majority of their most powerful are exiled into the galaxy for taking part in the Rubric, you have some who have cast themselves to the Warp's winds and embraced it all and there's still those who either follow Ahriman or his creed/belief that ultimately the Thousand Sons were loyal. The Night Lords could be in the chaotic camp really given how broken they are as a Legion and the willingness/eagerness that they knife each other in the back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The problem I have with applying the d&d alignment system to 40k is that almost every faction is going to fit into some shade of evil and be morally indistinguishable from the others. Maybe that's not a problem with the d&d system and more of a reflection of the grim and dark tone of the setting. That being said I like most of your alignment assignments. Night Lords I see as more Chaotic Evil, they have little structure other than loose bands with little to no command and control. At most their is a warlord whose orders seem to be ignored by the followers, without repercussions in some instances. They break every alliance they make and revel in slaughter for its own sake, rather than as a way for material gain. Of my opinion is based on my interpretation of the Night Lords Trilogy, so not an exhaustive list of sources. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 They are all Chaotic Evil in my view. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I find it difficult to use DnD's older alignment system for 40k. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Why are Death Guard Chaotic Evil? I'd figure they would be Neutral. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 They are all Chaotic Evil in my view. I find it difficult to use DnD's older alignment system for 40k. Although appreciating the effort - I think 'labeling' them per se offers little more to our understanding, not wishing to discount your effort. To do so reduces how all legions are both multifaceted and diverse, rather than simply within a mould or a category. If anything, they embody all of your categories at different times, and a strong case could be made for their placement in any other - which is what sadly undermines the process. To reduce us down to a trope or a label practically just makes us a loyalist...! We have far greater depth than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 I agree with most of what you have written above but indulge into this as a "exercise". Agreed, Chaos is by its very definition without a clear definition though some parallels can be drawn and some lines, however broad, can be set. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As an exercise then, I'd be tempted to move it around somewhat. Mostly on the basis of your definition of 'lawful evil'. Closer to: Lawful Evil: - Thousand Sons - Iron Warriors - Death Guard Neutral Evil: - Black Legion - Word Bearers Chaotic Evil: - Emperor's Children - Night Lords - World Eaters - Alpha Legion Justification being hierarchy and organisation. But equally, the more martial nature of the WE could see them move up, along with the BL, to 'lawful' as a category too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3909993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Why are they all even nessecarily evil? Eg alpha legion could be Chaotic Good world eaters chaotic neutral (they care not from where the blood flows!) Night lords chaotic evil, word bearers lawful evil, Iron warriors neutral evil Death guard lawful evil Thousand sons chaotic neutral? Black legion neutral evil Emperors children chaotic evil/neutral? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3910012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 They are all Chaotic Evil in my view. I find it difficult to use DnD's older alignment system for 40k. Although appreciating the effort - I think 'labeling' them per se offers little more to our understanding, not wishing to discount your effort. To do so reduces how all legions are both multifaceted and diverse, rather than simply within a mould or a category. If anything, they embody all of your categories at different times, and a strong case could be made for their placement in any other - which is what sadly undermines the process. To reduce us down to a trope or a label practically just makes us a loyalist...! We have far greater depth than that. My post is not intended to reflect the opinions or interpretations of other people in this thread. My post is simply my own personal opinion and interpretation, not intended to convince anyone or challenge anyone's opinion. I just do not see the Traitor Legions as anything other than Chaotic Evil through and through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3910282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The d&d alignment system is used in that game for organizations, races, towns, kingdoms, and individuals. In all but the latter it is usually used as a broad brush to give the players a general feel for the organization or place. Although useful, the broad brush approach is not as accurate as the more detailed approach of describing an individual's alignment and morality. With that in mind, and the hope that this doesn't derail the thread, how about a look at the chaos super stars and their alignments Khârn: Chaotic Evil. Obviously his motto is kill, maim, burn. He has no love for his allies or his enemies. Abaddon: Lawful Evil. He wants to unite the legions under his iron fisted rule and burn the galaxy for revenge. Huron: Lawful Evil. For much the same reason as Abaddon. Lucious: Chaotic Evil. He seems to have no goals other than get in challenging duels to the death. That and he runs with a bunch of doped out rockers. That's all I got for now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3910333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Continued. Typhus: Neutral Evil. He is out spreading plagues and undeath in a chaotic fashion much of the time totally unconcerned with the mass casualties. But some of these attacks are organized and strike strategic targets, like the Cadian Gate, in support of the 13th Black Crusade. Ahriman: Neutral Evil. He rebelled against his Primarch, a chaotic act, but in order to save his Legion's existing structure, a lawful act. Since the Rubricae he is described as your typical evil wizard, raiding libraries, fostering cults, etc... With the purpose of gaining more sorcerous power. I would classify this is Neutral Evil behavior. I once ran 3.5 d&d campaign where the greater gods were the Emperor and the big four and the lesser gods were the primarchs. It worked out fairly well as most of the players were familiar with 40k so they knew the basics of them. This allowed me to not have explane 23 different gods, morph overused ancient mythology or use the bland gods provided by the basic books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3910550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Some of the Legions changed their alignment before and after the Heresy. I'm talking about Night Lords mostly. Before the heresy they were the instrument to establish rock-solid law, the best law enforcers of the whole imperium. Can you call them anything other than Lawful Evil? It's like "everyone has to follow the law, but I am deciding what is the law!". Also I would probably make Death Guard as True Neutral. They pretty much do not care. And I do not see why Iron Warriors are considered lawful. I would probably leave them neutral for that reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3916661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 They are all Chaotic Evil in my view. I find it difficult to use DnD's older alignment system for 40k. Although appreciating the effort - I think 'labeling' them per se offers little more to our understanding, not wishing to discount your effort. To do so reduces how all legions are both multifaceted and diverse, rather than simply within a mould or a category. If anything, they embody all of your categories at different times, and a strong case could be made for their placement in any other - which is what sadly undermines the process. To reduce us down to a trope or a label practically just makes us a loyalist...! We have far greater depth than that. My post is not intended to reflect the opinions or interpretations of other people in this thread. My post is simply my own personal opinion and interpretation, not intended to convince anyone or challenge anyone's opinion. I just do not see the Traitor Legions as anything other than Chaotic Evil through and through. I don't see any faction save the orks and maybe Tyranids as anything but a variation of evil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3916813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Chaotic Evil: - Emperor's Children - Death Guard - World Eaters - Night Lords - Alpha Legion - Iron Warriors - Word Bearers - Thousand Sons - Black Legion I really dont think you can classify anything as 'Lawful'. It goes against the very nature of what you attempt to classify. Take the Thousand Sons. You say Lawful Evil. I dont see this. They broke the rules with the best of intentions. Surely that is the definition of chaotic good? Word Bearers were lawful good, until the chastisement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3919523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Nah, word bearers were loreful good, that was the problem! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3919562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I really dont think you can classify anything as 'Lawful'. It goes against the very nature of what you attempt to classify. Take the Thousand Sons. You say Lawful Evil. I dont see this. They broke the rules with the best of intentions. Surely that is the definition of chaotic good? Word Bearers were lawful good, until the chastisement. It kind of sounds like you're trying to narrow the definition of "lawful". My understanding since 2nd edition ADnD was always that "lawful" means that one strictly follows his principles, which has nothing to do about police and law enforcement. Like Night Haunter, he established a law and followed that law to the death, allowing some human to kill him just to prove the point. On the other hand, Alpha Legion do not have any principles at all, Khorne knows what they're doing actually, maybe they're just trolling the Imperium. In older editions of FB, Khorne champions were more Lawful Evil than Chaotic. They had to follow orders of their superiors, there were very few restrictions but if you're breaking those restrictions you're dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301456-a-study-chaos-legions-alignment/#findComment-3920340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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