How to equip sergeants for close combat in 7th Edition?

[Parcival]

I'd appreciate some input on what weapons, most notably close combat weapons, you give your sergeants to fight with in 40K 7th Edition.

 

I played heavily Blood Angels in 5th Edition and the smart thing to do back then was giving a Powerfist to every sergeant to deal with the really bad boys.

 

After two games in 7th and the new Codex, I wonder if Powerfists still have any use anymore. The sergeant has to stay in the back of the squad in order to swing back at Initiative 1, but my colleague loves to initiate challenges (he plays Skorne mono daemons, so it's fluffy) and that makes my Powerfist a 25pts paper weight. If I accept the challenge, the sergeant will be dead before he swings back, if he refuses, he won't get to use it either.

 

So what are folks doing these days? Handing out Powerswords to anyone?

[Deschenus Maximus]

Smart money's on bare sergeants.

[tdemayo]

Nowadays, a usually do not give close combat gear to sergeants in mostly shooting squads. My tactical marine sergeants usually have a combination weapon instead. It's not just challenges, it's also that any unit with mostly bolters is almost always better off double firing it rather than charging. (I really really like tac squads with a plasma gun paired with a combi plas for rapid fire. It is now my prefered configuration of tac squads.)

 

I still sometimes use a cc weapon on the sarge squads that are likely to assault: assault marines, bikers, etc. When 1w Meq seegeants fight, yes, a power weapon or lclaw usually defeats a fist. But if there's no challenge or no I order sword or claw, a fist is still a major boost in Meq fights otherwise: enough to tip the whole combat towards the side that has one. Conversely a power sword may win challenges vs fists, but it's not that great in a bigger melee, if there's no sarge to challenge. Plus they can punch vehicles. I actually rather like the fact that different weapons now have different advantages and disadvantages now, rather than just cost.

 

A sarge fist is also nice if there's big character in the unit, too. While the boss is fighting challenges and tanking, the sarge can squad heads in the main combat.

 

Pfists are also still really nice on Plague Marines, hidden in units, and on guys with a 2+, FnP, T 5 or any other such advantage that keeps them alive to swing.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 Shooty units get shooty sarges, choppy units get choppy sarges. Vet units get optimized for shooty or choppy. That's my guide. I have two distinctly different units in my troops section. I have Tac marines (Grey Hunters, there's a difference, but GH are generally better than standard tacs) and Assault marines (Blood Claws have a scout statline with a 3+). My veterans are just a cross between vanguard and sternguard, and cheaper than both to boot. It depends on what I want the unit to do, is it going after vehicles, powerfist, going after infantry, wolf claws (+1S AP3, Shred). I also get to hide weapon upgrades in my units, powerfists or powerswords, so I can add a little killy to the unit If I desire. 

[templargdt]

I go bare weapons or a meltabomb on my scout sergeants.  If I was taking a close combat weapon, I would run either a powerfist for hunting tanks or a power maul for general purposes (can still hurt most vehicles in CC, good against most CC targets and hit at initiative.  Wound on a 2+ and make him fail a save.)

[Naminé]

If I where going close combat orientated on a sergeant I'd probably favour the veteran upgrade and a power maul.

[Parcival]

Thanks to everyone replying to this thread. I couple ideas I saw coming, but it's always good to get assurance from the pack. Little did I expect to see my 3rd Edition sergeants with Chainsword and Boltpistol to see a comeback, but that's how I am going to roll for now until I have combiwepaons glued together.

[Excubitor]

I find power weapons, especially Power Mauls and Axes, far better than power fists in the new edition just for the extra attack. But then I tend to play Salamanders CT a lot so I get more use out of them with the master-crafting.

[Ishagu]

Don't bother. No matter how you equip them they will always be mediocre and likely die in a challenge.

 

Only exception are BA sergeants as they can have +1 str and +1 initiative.

[Excubitor]

It's something I find is very much is influenced by the person commanding the army. Some people swear by them, some don't, your mileage comes from how you use your units.

 

For me, I always reach for a Power weapon on a 10 man squad, combi-weapon on a 5-6 man squad. The way I use each unit type is different, thus the usage of them with different option varies.

 

Personally, for every battle where the upgrade is useless, there's another where it plays a major part. The way I use my 10-man units is very much right up front, within rapid fire range. Used this way, they regularly get into combat, and more often than not that power weapon comes into play. I've never though "if only I'd bought a combi-weapon", but when I haven't used the Power weapons I end up wishing I'd used them instead of what I'd dropped them for. Out of over a dozen veteran sergeants I have, only 4 have combi-weapons, and those go to my 5-man squads.

 

My advice? play around for a bit with both, see what suits your playstyle most. And power weapon sergeants always have the edge when it comes to modelling heroic poses!

[MagicMan]

 

Don't bother. No matter how you equip them they will always be mediocre and likely die in a challenge.

Only exception are BA sergeants as they can have +1 str and +1 initiative.

 

 

^ Who apparently don't get to swing, and so die in a challenge? lol

 

 

 

Power-Weapons are good. They open up Tactical options.

 

 

My Squad with PW, vs your squad without PW.

I'm not worried about getting into your face, brawling with you, and grinding you into offal on-top of an objective.

 

Yeah, with the combi-weapon you will get an extra special weapon shot against me, once. But after that i've killed your Sarge (and stripped you of his higher LD) and probably chopped a couple of his buddies up into the bargain.

For a squad that wants to remain flexible in order to hang around objectives, a little melee capability can be a life-saver. Just my two pennies.

[Hellios]

It's all about what you want the squad to do, and how many points you are willing to spare.

 

Cheap, and cheerful, multi-purpose Sgt. for a squad that may advance? combi-flamer + melta-bombs. Flame gribble, bomb armour.

 

Are you pairing your Sgt. with another character? If so, who will accept challenges?

 

If you are going to drop your initiative, choose carefully between the power-axe, power-fist, and the thunder-hammer. If you don't need S8 the power-axe might be better value for your points. If you do need S8 (and you have the option), would the thunder-hammer be a superior option to a power-fist?

[tdemayo]

I dunno. In my experience, I have not found power weapons to be very useful on tactical squads since 6th edition began. A number of small changes shifted the likelyhood and nature of assaults. Dedicated assault units will kill a tactical squad regardless. So power weapons mostly help tactical squads win fights against equivalent sorts of opponents: other tactical squads and so forth. I used to find such assaults occurred quite frequently. Now, not so much.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I dunno. In my experience, I have not found power weapons to be very useful on tactical squads since 6th edition began. A number of small changes shifted the likelyhood and nature of assaults. Dedicated assault units will kill a tactical squad regardless. So power weapons mostly help tactical squads win fights against equivalent sorts of opponents: other tactical squads and so forth. I used to find such assaults occurred quite frequently. Now, not so much.

 

Agreed.

[MagicMan]

I suppose its down to playstyle.

 

For me, the power weapon allows the Tactical squad to perform more effectively in a broader range of tasks. Making them more... Tactical.

 

It also gives them the edge over similar enemy squads. 



Played a game recently against a Chaos player who didn't take any melee upgrades for his Champions, because he dislikes being forced to challenge and didn't want to spend the points on 1 wound models. It allowed me to get in close and bully him away from the objectives. It also let my Sarges contend with his Sorcerer in close combat.

[Kaedes Nex]

Smart money's on bare sergeants.

 

B-but muh melta bombs

[shandwen]

I always give at the least meltabombs. Fora squad that will have a character attached I'll pay for a power weapon or fist (rarely a fist though). I never have played out for the vet upgrade. Those points seem to always be better used elsewhere. For BT and BA I do find power weapons to be worth the points, but when playing RG combi weapons win.

[VoteForPedro]

_{I tend to avoid CC upgrades to sergeants, despite the lure of breaking out the bits box and making some cool models for them!}

 

_{My Tac Squad Sergeants get a Combi Weapon that matches the Special Weapon the squad takes. If I have points left over they get Melta Bombs and I call it a day. This is in Sentinels of Terra marines anyway, your mileage may vary in Blood Angels where I see a more compelling case for a Power Sword at I5.}

[Gothical]

 

 

Power-Weapons are good. They open up Tactical options.

 

 

My Squad with PW, vs your squad without PW.

 

I'm not worried about getting into your face, brawling with you, and grinding you into offal on-top of an objective.

 

Yeah, with the combi-weapon you will get an extra special weapon shot against me, once. But after that i've killed your Sarge (and stripped you of his higher LD) and probably chopped a couple of his buddies up into the bargain.

 

For a squad that wants to remain flexible in order to hang around objectives, a little melee capability can be a life-saver. Just my two pennies.

 

 

What kinds of power weapons do you equip your Sergeants with - are there tactical options you take into consideration? Or do you just go with whatever looks cool for the pose the Sergeant is in?

 

I agree that a Power Weapon could certainly make a squad more flexible, and that is what I want in my Troops choices. For me, a Flamer and Multi-Melta work very well for "bully squads", and to use these weapons effectively (not to mention the Boltguns of the rest of the squad) they have to be close to a target. Even if you are not in a challenge, the Power Weapon helps give you the edge over other Marines in combat which could just be enough to tip the odds in your favour. It also makes killing off far weaker targets more of a sure thing - yes, an Imperial Guard squad will fold in combat...but for those situations where you really, really need to break through in one turn the power weapons help out.

 

It also helps that the Salamanders chapter tactics mean the power weapon gets a free master crafting, and the flamer is a little bit deadlier on top as well.

[Lysere]

If you absolutely expect a sergeant to end up in melee and you want him to have any chance of winning then you need to give him something. If he's got a combi weapon a lightning claw works pretty dang well, if he's got a pistol then go Power sword. It swings at initiative, ignores most armor saves, and doesn't cost as much as a fist. Mauls can work as well, and if you know he'll probably get the charge off power lances are solid as well. The worst thing you can do is make a Sergeant I 1, since even a bare bones character could challenge you and have a chance to kill you.

 

Power fists and power axes work great on non character models, I do it all the time with my Templar Crusader Squads.

[Kilofix]

It depends on whether you have an IC, and which particular IC too.

 

Like if I run CSM Lucius (who's better in Challenges) with the Squad - then my Champion is going to be packing a Power Axe.

[ShinyRhino]

I dunno. In my experience, I have not found power weapons to be very useful on tactical squads since 6th edition began. A number of small changes shifted the likelyhood and nature of assaults. Dedicated assault units will kill a tactical squad regardless. So power weapons mostly help tactical squads win fights against equivalent sorts of opponents: other tactical squads and so forth. I used to find such assaults occurred quite frequently. Now, not so much.

 

This situation happens quite a bit in my games, due to the value of Objective Secured. If you need that objective the enemy Tactical Squad or equivalent is on, you're going to send your own Objective Secured unit to at least contest it. That means a simple power sword can tip the balance in that small area of the board.

[Kilofix]

 

I dunno. In my experience, I have not found power weapons to be very useful on tactical squads since 6th edition began. A number of small changes shifted the likelyhood and nature of assaults. Dedicated assault units will kill a tactical squad regardless. So power weapons mostly help tactical squads win fights against equivalent sorts of opponents: other tactical squads and so forth. I used to find such assaults occurred quite frequently. Now, not so much.

 

 

This situation happens quite a bit in my games, due to the value of Objective Secured. If you need that objective the enemy Tactical Squad or equivalent is on, you're going to send your own Objective Secured unit to at least contest it. That means a simple power sword can tip the balance in that small area of the board.

Yeah, it also depends on the types of games you play.

 

Maelstrom often ends up in CC, even moreso for Cities of Death and Zone Mortalis.

 

Even in 7th, there are still so many units that are just screaming to assault you, like Nids, BA, some of the new Dreads, even the new Necron Flayed Ones, etc.

 

A Sgt. with a Power Sword will probably cover its costs in that case.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Im giving my plague champions a lc and melta bombs

[tdemayo]

I like power fists on Plague marine champions. With their high T and fnp are very likely to survive to hit in a challenge, and what a Pfist hits, it kills dead.