Anyone using heavy weapons in their tactical squads?

[templargdt]

I've been enjoying using scouts as my troops for two years or so now, but I've finally managed to finish stripping and repainting some of my tactical marines and want to start using them again.

 

So, to the point.  Is anyone actually buying them a heavy weapon, or just special and matching combiweapon?  

 

I sort of want to use a heavy bolter, because I love the model.  I just doubt I'll get much use out of it.

 

 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Ah, the eternal dilemma. For what its worth, you probably DO want a heavy weapon, as Tacticals with just a special and a combi are rather underwhelming... well, even more so than usual.

 

I'd go with the following template:

 

10 Tacticals - Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Drop Pod.

 

The Plasma Cannon guy chucks the squad's grenade on the turn the squad lands. After that, they sit still and go pew pew!

[tdemayo]

I usually give mine a ML. It's cheap and versitile and basically gravy. My priority with tac marines is always to maximize bolter/special/combi shots. If that means snap firing the ML, not much lost. If however I'm stationary that turn anyway, I can add it to any bolter fire, or if nothing is in range, take a shot at a vehicle somewhere.

 

I occasionally use a plasma cannon instead. Same theory. My priority is to use my rapid fire/special weapons optimally, but if u do end up stationary, the plasma template synergizes nicely with the tacticals' anti infantry role.

 

Also, I like plasma. A lot.

[Naminé]

I tend to use 5 man squads with a heavy weapon more in 7th then any other kind.   My favourite is a Lascannon (Ultramarines doctrine) sat in some good cover and on an objective, with a combi-grav on the sergeant.  This squad is especially good for sniping transports or lone characters, but I find it's pretty damn dangerous against the scary stuff that comes close.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Only if they're Rhino-mounted, using the old tried-and-true Rhino-bunker concept that was so popular in 5th Edition.  I remain a big fan of plasma cannons, though I did take a heavy bolter once that put the final wound on a Wraithknight in a tournament.  That was funny.

[Excubitor]

Plasma cannons, Heavy Bolters, and missile launchers are my go-to heavy choices for Tactical squads. Lascannons hate me on non-bs5 platforms, and my melta units only ever hit on snap shots.

 

For me it depends on the size of the squad, 5 man squads get specials or plasma cannons, 10 man squads get a heavy depending on role and special choice - plasma/grav gets plasma cannon (though missile can work here too), flamer gets Heavy bolter/Missile launcher. Although, for Imperial Fists CT, 5-man squad with heavy bolter could work as well.

 

Heavy bolters are a good 'just throw it on in case' weapon choice, especially with IF and UM tactics, because even if you move it has a decent chance of at least getting a hit or two off. Missile launchers are the ultimate 'jack of all trades' that has a shot for every occasion. Plasma cannons are just plain deadly, and can force an opponent to spread their units out, with their only disadvantage being you have to stay still to fire.

[templargdt]

I don't care for the idea of paying for something I may not be using effectively, so a HB seems a good choice to me.  Cheapest weapon, high RoF for trying to hit on a 6, matches the target set of the squad (infantry).  Plus I like the model.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Heh, the heavy bolters just isn't that good, though. If it was free, maybe, but 10 pts? When a PC is just 5 pts more, I don't see the appeal.

[Emperors Immortals]

Am I the only one taking multimelta?

 

Its always in a rhino bunker, though plasma pod squad is fun too.

 

And if we took a vote, I'd think HeavyBolter would be the most loved but never used heavy.

[Deschenus Maximus]

HB needs some serious love. Just making it a free upgrade would be a good start.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

They're a decent, cheap choice if you're running CT:IF because they're affected by Bolter Drill.  Beyond that, they're really only truly effective when used en masse, making a four-HB Dev squad a fairly impressive display of firepower.  And yes, the multimelta remains a decent choice, but I firmly believe that it still needs to be matched with plasma.

[tdemayo]

I think the standard rate of fire for all HBs, stubbers and similar weapons should at least be double what it is now. It would make them a much more respectable choice.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Why take 4 heavy bolters when you can take 4 plasma cannons?

[Excubitor]

My multi-melta models are my anti-air choices, it's the only thing they ever hit!

[Hellios]

Yes, but it depends on how you see yourself using the squad. I like the missile launcher, it's cheap, and it is good against a range of units. It can have a crack at most armour, or you can drop a frag on light infantry. Against MEQ you can frag or krak. Against T4 multi-wound models, and Tyranid monstrous creatures... Krak...

 

I also like the plasma cannon... I May, or may not, have stuck 5 of them in a 400pt list... It is less flexible than the missile launcher, especially when you consider the additional cost, but it can melt MEQ, and TEQ. When I take Longfangs I tend to run a mix of Plasma Cannons and Missile Launchers.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Why take 4 heavy bolters when you can take 4 plasma cannons?

 

1.) Price.  Plasma cannons are more expensive.

2.) Bolter Drill.  I was specifically pointing out their advantage with CT:IF, and I feel that an army should attempt to maximize every advantage they get from their Chapter Tactics.

3.) Gets Hot.  Some people are extremely averse to losing models to their own weapons.  I don't feel that way -- it's a risk vs reward thing -- but I know folks who do.

 

I could go on, but those are the strongest arguments, I feel.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

1.) Price.  Plasma cannons are more expensive.

 

The price difference isn't enough to really be a good argument, imo. If HBs were a free upgrade to Tacs/Devs, then yes, it would be a valid point.

 

2.) Bolter Drill.  I was specifically pointing out their advantage with CT:IF, and I feel that an army should attempt to maximize every advantage they get from their Chapter Tactics.

 

I agree to a point, but even with Bolter Drill, a HB is still less deadly than a PC.

 

3.) Gets Hot.  Some people are extremely averse to losing models to their own weapons.  I don't feel that way -- it's a risk vs reward thing -- but I know folks who do.

 

I always thought that argument was absurd. Gets Hot is an annoyance, but if that is what is stopping people from taking plasma weapons, than they are severely hamstringing themselves over nothing.

 

 

Comments in red.

[Kaedes Nex]

LC or nothing, IMO. PC can also be okay but the template is kind of small and the current game is more Knights, MCs, and flyers rather than small TEQ. None of the other weapons are worth using, not even MM on Ultras/Vulkan Salamanders (due to 24" and Heavy even when TL).

 

Normally you should just save the 15-20 points per squad and spend them elsewhere, but if you're playing Tactical spam and combat squadding the LC in every other combat squad can add up and provides target saturation and natural Split Fire. LCs may be expensive as crap in the current edition, but it's also a threat to everyone besides horde players.

 

Maelstrom and Objective Secured also makes the movement phase even more important than it used to be, devaluing heavies even more. The weapon must offer something big to be worth taking (like if you accidentally left out anti-tank on every single possible slot, then you probably want to take some MMs and Melta Bombs), and LCs fishing for explosions or racking up hull points does just that. If you're a statistical average theorist, then you need to increase your LC count anyway to combat things like Knights. If you're a gambler, LCs give you the best chance at exploding things with your troops from the farthest possible distance and on turn 1.

[VoteForPedro]

Heavy Bolters for me, though that's using SoT Chapter Tactics.

 

I take 2 10 man Tac Squads in my 1500 lists, in Drop Pods. Worst case scenario the Heavy Bolter isn't amazing on the turn they drop but it's more useful than any of the other options and potentially better than a standard Bolter if the squad survives the following turn.

 

Anti Tank is more than covered by Centurions etc so my Tacs tend to be more focussed on Anti infantry which the Heavy Bolter synergises with nicely.

 

Worst case scenario it's 20 points wasted which, on the balance of things, I can live with.

[shandwen]

Durring the lasr campaign I was in I ran two min tac squads with laz cannons. Against orcs I blew two transports first turn. They are always either super hot or super cold. I also say that heavy bolters are great for IF tactics. Lots of dakka, and a good chance of killing just about anything.

[knife&fork]

Heavy flamer of course, best choice in a pod. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Heavy flamer of course, best choice in a pod. 

 

If you're playing BA, accept no substitute. I soooooo hope vanilla Marines get them too next Codex.

[templargdt]

I think the conclusion I've come to is this: the heavy should try and match the mission of the specials.  Multimelta/Melta (or plasma gun) or Heavy Bolter if you are focusing the squad on anti-infantry.  Sure, if C:SM gets heavy flamer next codex, that would be awesome.

[Gothical]

In a 10-man unit I always take a heavy weapon, As the Marine still caries a bolt pistol, you are only ever losing 1 Str4 AP5 shot, yet gain a weapon that can be incredibly useful.

 

My "offensive" squads are in a Rhino with a Flamer, Multi-Melta and Sergeant with a Power Sword - their job is to clear opponents out of objectives/attack a weak point and then bunker down - which is where the Multi-Melta comes in. It acts as a relatively decent anti-tank/walker deterrent. Sometimes the Power Weapon is swapped out for a Combi-Flamer and Meltabomb, but it has been relatively useful (mind you, Salamanders chapter traits mean that it is master-crafted).

 

I am tempted to include a third Tactical Squad in a drop pod with either Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter (for the look of the model) or Meltagun and Plasma Cannon (as a Deepstrike, Objective Secured Plasma Cannon can be brutal).

 

In fact, the only heavy weapons I am not real fans of are the Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter, now that the weapons costs are more sensible than in previous editions. The Heavy Bolter just lacks punch these days. If Flakk Missiles were free then the Missile Launcher would rocket up the usefulness scale (pun intended), but right now I prefer to have a Lascannon/Multi-Melta instead for anti-tank work and a Plasma Cannon for anti-infantry/light vehicles if flexibility is what you are after.

[Kaedes Nex]

The issue isn't the lost shot, it's the fact that you paid 15-20 points for the heavy and those points aren't being put to use if you choose to run with the model, compromising the squad's mobility.

 

You can still compensate for this. Chapter tactics, combat squadding, putting the heavy weapon as far up as possible and moving every other squad member but him, etc. If heavies were free we'd all take them even if they had to snapfire.