Grey Knights and the Golden thrown

[Chronotonic]

Something no one ever says but should think about

 

The custodes only have 300 of them guarding the emperor at any point in time correct...does not state how many there really are this rotations I am going to hedge my bets with 10 rotations this 3k custodes over time and how many were lost during the HH

 

Second let's say the gk have the emperors gene seed and thus his legion and are made along the lines of the other loyalist marines

 

It was stated many times that the custodes were made in a more refined way and thus a close but no cigar type marine

 

Who is to say or not say that the custodes are also using the emperors gene seed as well making them brothers to the gk and part of this plan or atleast know about this plan

 

Also gold for the custodes and silver for the gk I mean really. We are but we are not custodes ignore the fact that we have halberds just like te custodes minus the Bolter at the end ours is on the wrist

[Quozzo]

Either group could be using the Emperor's gene-seed. Neither might.

 

Kind of depends on whether or not there is Emperor gene-seed. I've always seen that as being an even bigger stretch than Space Wolf gene-seed being Chaos resistant, or the Apocrypha(s) being taken as in-universe fact.

 

Personally, I feel that there's some irony to this device. It's possible that its use could save the Imperium. The irony is that, for the sake of the Imperium, it will never be used. By the time that it gets to a point where a Grey Knight would push the red button, there would be no Grey Knights left alive. If there were, then it obviously hadn't reached that point yet.

 

The custodes were created before the Primarchs, so their creation process is vastly different than any Space Marine. The Primarchs are also known to have been made from the Emperors own seed, which if different than the custodes can't be from the Emperor. The Grey Knights have also been unequivocally named as the descendants of the Emperor, no ifs, buts, maybes or insinuations, they are the Emperor's Finest warriors.

 

I also don't think Grey Knights are that delusional. When the daemons, tyranids, chaos, orks, necrons or numerous other enemies of man are swarming towards Terra with no hope of surviving, will be enough for the decree to be opened. Some knowingly lay down their lives to save a planet so they do have a sense of tactics and for the betterment of mankind, able to plan a head even if the present consequences could cost them their life.

[Wrath of Humanity]

Idk if this is relevant, but I really hope they make an Emperor miniature like they did with Horus, how op would he be?

[thade]

I hope they don't, honestly. The Emperor isn't a warrior: the Emperor is a plot device. To be fair, I felt similarly about the Primarchs and look what happened there...but the Emperor may as well be a hundred Rending Ponies.

[Ultramarine Blue]

They will need to make an Emperor eventually when they get to his fight, but that is ages away.

[Quozzo]

If the Terminus Decree is known only to Draigo, and he has been damned by the chaos gods to float in the warp for all eternity, then perhaps the Terminus Decree would actually work. The chaos gods knowing this tried to prevent that from happened by separating the only living Supreme Grand Master from the "simple wooden box, embellished with a golden seal". How new Supreme Grand Masters become aware of this decree is something that hasn't been explained. Maybe he gets a letter in the post when he assumes his new office. "Dear occupant. If you are reading this then it means I have failed. Gratz on the promotion though. I wish for my cat to go to Thawn, and my trusty loofer is for Mordrak. By the way, there is this wooden box..."

[ChaoticEric]

The new codex states the following on the decree (p 14 in the ibook version)

1. The decree is held in a wooden box with a golden seal in what is believed to be the chamber holding the sigilite himself.

2. Only the GK SGM knows how to open the seal and will do so only when all hope is lost, i.e. noone knows what the decree says and only the GK SGM knows that it exists and how to open it.

3. It is rumoured there is another box with an identical seal kept at the golden throne.

 

From this I'd make out the following;

1. If the decree is kept in the chamber of the sigilite it's probably coming from him and then in extension also probably on the order of the emprah himself, i.e. it is sanctioned by the emperor

2. It has never been opened so no one alive but the emprah (alive or not?) knows of it's content

3. There is a matching box held by the golden throne. Hence when it's all gone to hell and it's time to reboot, the gk will show up at terra waving the decree and in it there's a message to shut down the throne and to open the identical box by the throne to confirm it's content. The custodes will be the ones opening the box by the throne and if they follow the instructions in it, they'll let the gk switch off the throne by the order of the emprah himself. I.e., no fight as long as everyone's doing what they're supposed to, just as planned,

4. Therefore the emprah will not alert the custodes that the gk are approaching and that they should be attacked, perhaps he's even the one who will alert the GK SGM that the time has come to break the box open?

 

I also hope they never make any rules for the emperor. He's not supposed to be quantified. I actually also hope they never make a model for him, even though there are plenty of pics his looks are less definitive if there's no model and as a deity I think he's supposed to be a bit intangible.

[Captain Coolpants]

If there's a Horus model, then there should be an emperor model. Since clearly there wasn't really oooverly much of a difference between the 2 if Horus killed another primarch and THEN went toe to toe with the emprah.. they essentially killed each other off.

[ChaoticEric]

If there's a Horus model, then there should be an emperor model. Since clearly there wasn't really oooverly much of a difference between the 2 if Horus killed another primarch and THEN went toe to toe with the emprah.. they essentially killed each other off.

He did indeed but Horus also kept getting stronger during the HH as he got more and more entangled with the ruinous powers. The question is at what stage the rules for him are, i.e. are the rules for him at his strongest or perhaps earlier when he was closer to his primarch brothers in power?

 

And perhaps not even the Emprah could avoid rolling four 1s for his 2++ when he was up against Horus? :)

[thade]

Horus and the Emperor are not equals in might or power. Horus was a demigod but the only reason he hurt the Big E is that the Emperor didn't have the heart to kill him (at first) at let the battle drag on too long. So...don't mistake Horus's toe-to-toe with some justification for a Big E stat line.

[Valerian]

Yeah, what thade said.  Horus was powerful, but no match for the Emperor.  The Emperor got beat up, because he held back until he really knew that there was no way to save humanity, but to kill one of his children.  Not an easy thing to do.  

 

V

[Conn Eremon]

Let's not get too overboard with that, though. Horus was able to hold his own against the Emperor. It's not like the Emperor just stood there and took the hits until he'd had enough. Both Horus and the Emperor were fighting (on levels both physical and psychic, as described) hardcore. Horus tore off the Emperor's sword arm. Yes, by the end, the Emperor obliterated Horus in a psychic attack that even the Chaos Gods retreated from. That's some serious mojo that Horus couldn't match. But that's kind of it. So it seems less that the Emperor was truly greater than Horus Ascended, and more that the two were more or less equal, with the Emperor having an ace in the hole attack he was initially hesitant to use.

[Valerian]

Let's not get too overboard with that, though. Horus was able to hold his own against the Emperor. It's not like the Emperor just stood there and took the hits until he'd had enough. Both Horus and the Emperor were fighting (on levels both physical and psychic, as described) hardcore. Horus tore off the Emperor's sword arm. Yes, by the end, the Emperor obliterated Horus in a psychic attack that even the Chaos Gods retreated from. That's some serious mojo that Horus couldn't match. But that's kind of it. So it seems less that the Emperor was truly greater than Horus Ascended, and more that the two were more or less equal, with the Emperor having an ace in the hole attack he was initially hesitant to use.

 

I'll see if I can locate the old Rogue Trader era story that tells the tale.  As I recall (and it has been decades), Horus only did so much damage because the Emperor allowed it.  Once the decision was made to go "game on" the Emperor just obliterated him.

 

We'll see if I can turn that up.

 

V

 

EDIT:  Okay found it.  There version that I was remembering is found on page 182-183 of the Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990).  In that story the Emperor is indeed getting his rear handed to him, but a couple quotes are what caught my attention:

 

"In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power.  The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing.  Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster.  Horus shows no such restraint."

 

"The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face.  There is no trace of his friend left there.  There is only a daemon driven insane by destructive fury."

 

"The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him.  He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who has been as a son to him."   

 

"The Emperor lets fly.  It strikes the Warmaster.  Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony.  He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow, but his struggles become ever more feeble as the lethal energies play over him."

 

"He forces all mercy and all compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and camaraderie and love.  His eyes lock with Horus and sees understanding there.  Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing, the Emperor destroys the Warmaster."

 

 

Of course, our interpretations may vary, but my feeling is this:   if not for the closeness of their relationship, if Horus had just been some random dude in the same situation, who had somehow garnered the favor of all of the Chaos Powers and the two had come to battle, the Emperor would have turned him to dust with no hesitation.  The Emperor would be alive and well, with nary a scratch on him.  The Warmaster had incredible power, and brought the Emperor low, but only because the Emperor couldn't bring himself to do anything but fight defensively at first, until he knew that Horus could not be redeemed.

 

Best,

 

V

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, you guys have to appreciate that besides the Emperor's absurd power level (this is a human being who fights psychic battles with the False Gods and wins), he made the Primarchs from scratch. He knows every part of their being, down the atoms that make them up, as well as their souls. Given that, it's no surprise he was able to unmake Horus. Plus, as the laws of physics tell us, destruction (ie entropy) is infinitely easier to cause than creation. Creation is pushing the stone uphill, destruction is just pushing it off the edge. 

 

Horus was also the chosen champion of the False Gods of the time, and swollen with their power and blessings. Still not Emperor-tier, but as the fight shows us, enough to cause lasting and near-fatal damage to the Emperor's physical form, especially as the Emperor is holding back the whole time. 

[Quozzo]

Of course, our interpretations may vary, but my feeling is this:   if not for the closeness of their relationship, if Horus had just been some random dude in the same situation, who had somehow garnered the favor of all of the Chaos Powers and the two had come to battle, the Emperor would have turned him to dust with no hesitation.  The Emperor would be alive and well, with nary a scratch on him.  The Warmaster had incredible power, and brought the Emperor low, but only because the Emperor couldn't bring himself to do anything but fight defensively at first, until he knew that Horus could not be redeemed.

 

Best,

 

V

I agree, the Gods were formed from Humanities emotions, so it's not uncommon for them to have an understanding of our emotions. They used the Emperors compassion of his sons against him. We all know that the Primarchs were whisked away due to chaos seeing what they could become. I've always though of that as the Primarchs becoming a threat to chaos, but reading the excerpt above it seems they were whisked away due to what they would [now] become. As Valerian says, if it had been some random Greater Daemon or some stranger on the same power level as a daemon Primarch then they wouldn't stand a chance, but as it was his son and he just wanted to know if it was necessary to kill Hours, gave him enough time to defeat the Emperor. Perhaps that was Chaos' plan all along for the Primarchs.

[Wrath of Humanity]

 

Of course, our interpretations may vary, but my feeling is this:   if not for the closeness of their relationship, if Horus had just been some random dude in the same situation, who had somehow garnered the favor of all of the Chaos Powers and the two had come to battle, the Emperor would have turned him to dust with no hesitation.  The Emperor would be alive and well, with nary a scratch on him.  The Warmaster had incredible power, and brought the Emperor low, but only because the Emperor couldn't bring himself to do anything but fight defensively at first, until he knew that Horus could not be redeemed.

 

Best,

 

V

I agree, the Gods were formed from Humanities emotions, so it's not uncommon for them to have an understanding of our emotions. They used the Emperors compassion of his sons against him. We all know that the Primarchs were whisked away due to chaos seeing what they could become. I've always though of that as the Primarchs becoming a threat to chaos, but reading the excerpt above it seems they were whisked away due to what they would [now] become. As Valerian says, if it had been some random Greater Daemon or some stranger on the same power level as a daemon Primarch then they wouldn't stand a chance, but as it was his son and he just wanted to know if it was necessary to kill Hours, gave him enough time to defeat the Emperor. Perhaps that was Chaos' plan all along for the Primarchs.

 

 

Wow this is so deep bruh.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree, the Gods were formed from Humanities emotions, so it's not uncommon for them to have an understanding of our emotions.

 

It's far more than that. The False Gods are both powerful and weak for that precise reason. Powerful because they're this massive gestalt reflection of all psychic beings emotions in the warp, and weak because that's all they are (ie you can use it against them). Remember, the Chaos Gods aren't sentient beings. They are incredibly complex, but they don't think like a human being does. Even Tzeentch plots against himself because its his nature, he has no control of it really. 

They used the Emperors compassion of his sons against him.

 

Well not really. The Chaos Gods wanted the Primarchs for themselves, because they want new champions in their endless struggles for power (which are futile because their power is determined by the emotional interactions of psychic beings in reality). They also wanted to break and then enslave the Imperium and its people. The best way to do that would be to corrupt the ones most entrusted with building and defending the new empire ie the Legions Astartes. And to that, they need Primarchs, because no one else except the Emperor has the same influence over the Astartes. 

We all know that the Primarchs were whisked away due to chaos seeing what they could become. I've always though of that as the Primarchs becoming a threat to chaos, but reading the excerpt above it seems they were whisked away due to what they would [now] become.

 

No, it's even more simple dude. The Chaos Gods stole them away because they wanted to weed out those they couldn't use (hence their repeated attempts to kill the Lion), and lay the seeds of corruption in those they could use. They only needed to corrupt half, and fast enough to ensure the Imperium couldn't contain the ensuing civil war. 

As Valerian says, if it had been some random Greater Daemon or some stranger on the same power level as a daemon Primarch then they wouldn't stand a chance, but as it was his son and he just wanted to know if it was necessary to kill Hours, gave him enough time to defeat the Emperor. Perhaps that was Chaos' plan all along for the Primarchs. 

 

Well their plan was to firstly corrupt the Legions and unmake the Imperium, and then kill the Emperor. The Primarchs were a means to an end, like all things that the Chaos Gods desire. 

[ChaoticEric]

However, on page 13 of the ibooks version of the recent blood angels codex it reads

 

"Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour."

 

:)

[thade]

However, on page 13 of the ibooks version of the recent blood angels codex it reads

"Despite the Emperor's great power, he could never have bested Horus had not the blade of Sanguinius wrought a chink in the Warmaster's armour."

It lies. Seriously. Buckle up. <3

Conflicting sources shouldn't surprise us for the same reason that the Blood Angels codex here is lying to us...the BA dex is full of crap. This is because they have different authors. (By "authors" I mean "The Sanguinary Priests in the story" and not "The real world literal authors." To be fair, different world world authors also contributes to conflict...but in this case I assert that it's a case of different agencies reporting on history from different view points.)

Sanguinus's efforts against the Warmaster, valiant while they were, shouldn't be seen by us (the GK, the Inquisition) as the reason the Emperor won. The Emperor still would have won because he's the freakin' Emperor; as Valerian explained, the only reason the Big E isn't still walking around is that he pulled a Clark Kent: he stood there and took it, trying to figure out a way to win without hurting the bad guy. In the end, upon exploring every possibility (as only a superhuman could) and determining it was hopeless, he took his favorite son out. (Let's not forget that "favorite son" part...it's hard to overestimate just how much the Big E cherished Horus or just how hard this was for him.)

There wasn't much "Horus" left there anyway; he was mostly a walking aggregate of demonic warp power at that point. Which is the Big E's specialty. Remember, warp spawn call the Emperor "the Anathema" for a reason. He is their undoing. If there's a logical/tactical reason for all the extreme trouble they went to to cause the civil war (beyond the thematic "Chaos!" reason) that's it.

As for the Decree we've been discussing it and that alleged pair of wooden boxes is totally a foul lie propagated as folklore, created and instigated by Tzeentchian cultists. There's no way it's a pair of boxes with matching locks. That's just silly. Deck 13 Sec C...you know where to go.

[ChaoticEric]

I think they (gw) deliberately publish conflicting and contradictionary info about the fluff to keep it interesting and to keep the discussions going. Once they publish the be all, end all version the discussion would be dead and also most of the interest.

[thade]

Maybe. You have more faith in them than I do, in that case. ;)

 

It's actually the best way to look at it, whether that's truly the case or not: we really can cherry pick from the fluff as we wish because the Grimdark is so staggeringly vast, both in time and space, that no entity - no matter how powerful - knows the full truth...and those that know most of the truth aren't talking. Not to us, anyway.

[Quozzo]

@ Reclusiarch Darius: Maybe I give the Chaos Gods too much credit, but I don't believe their plans are ever that simple and are far beyond our comprehension.

Conflicting sources shouldn't surprise us for the same reason that the Blood Angels codex here is lying to us...the BA dex is full of crap. This is because they have different authors. (By "authors" I mean "The Sanguinary Priests in the story" and not "The real world literal authors." To be fair, different world world authors also contributes to conflict...but in this case I assert that it's a case of different agencies reporting on history from different view points.)

I believe you're using the in-game authors argument for justification for the contradictions... yet it's the only thing that makes sense

I think they (gw) deliberately publish conflicting and contradictionary info about the fluff to keep it interesting and to keep the discussions going. Once they publish the be all, end all version the discussion would be dead and also most of the interest.

I wish that was the case, would make so much sense considering GW even published conflicting material in the same book once.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

@ Reclusiarch Darius: Maybe I give the Chaos Gods too much credit, but I don't believe their plans are ever that simple and are far beyond our comprehension.

 

Well they don't work on our timescale. To them time is a meaningless construct. But through their many champions and servants, they do have plans. The plan to kill the Emperor and corrupt his empire+human race is something we can comprehend, even if the means by which they'd do it are mind-bogglingly vast.