Not so 'nice' Angels *Likely BL Spoilers*

[Kilofix]

Originally, I felt that other than Salamanders and Space Wolve; Blood Angles were one of the Chapters that were generally 'nicer' to humans.

 

But after reading Sons of Wrath and Trial by Blood, I don't think so anymore.

 

I realize that the above primarily concerns Flesh Tearer's but they're all cut from the same cloth so to speak.

 

At first, I thoughht that Gabriel was really trying to keep his lot under control, but he really just hides things in a coincidentally Dark Angel'ish way.

[Morticon]

Im ashamed to admit, that i'm not the strongest when it comes to hardcore fluff stuff and BA.  Gaming- sure.  Fire it up.  Fluff- i'm hit/miss.  

 

BUT, having said that, i was under the impression the BA were humanity's protectors and were "the good guys".  The FT on the other hand- theyre a lot different.  While they may be "cut from the same cloth" - the same could be said about the traitor legions and the emperor! 

 

I think the FT suffer a lot more with this stuff than the BA, and thats reflected accordingly.

[Kilofix]

 

I think the things that may have changed it for me are:

 

1. At the end of "Trial By Blood", just as the Council of Blood Angel Chapters are about to condemn Gabriel and disband the Flesh Tearers, Dante (with Astorath's prodding) suddenly decides to keep Gabe and his boys around as they can still be useful as "weapons".

 

And this is after fully reviewing and being aware of all the 'innocent' lives that the FTs have taken, along with the additional lives sacrificed to keep things quiet.

 

This inaction borders on complicity.

 

2. It's alluded to in various instances that all the Blood Angels are equally afflicted. The Flesh Tearers are just more overt about it.

 

Now being Chaos aligned, I'm tickled by all of this but it again goes to show that another Loyalist Chapter is really just lying to itself.

 

Btw, I also just read Khârn - Eater of Worlds and the FTs really don't act very different.

 

 

[Charlo]

It's in the name for me, FLESH TEARERS, there is nothing friendly or protecting about that name, they literally tears things apart off the bone and rend them.

Yeah the main guys and some of the other successors might tolerate and interact with humanity I just don't think it was ever the FT's intention, they must've been given that name for a reason at the second founding surely? Maybe it was made up of the more afflicted brothers, or those who just didn't want to hide it.

[Kilofix]

It's in the name for me, FLESH TEARERS, there is nothing friendly or protecting about that name, they literally tears things apart off the bone and rend them.

Yeah the main guys and some of the other successors might tolerate and interact with humanity I just don't think it was ever the FT's intention, they must've been given that name for a reason at the second founding surely? Maybe it was made up of the more afflicted brothers, or those who just didn't want to hide it.

Yeah, Guilleman decreed that the Legions be broken up, and even gave Amit a new TDA with new insignias for his 'promotion'. In naming the new Chapter, it was probably Guilleman too that said; "Ok, just so there's no confusion around this,....".

 

I still / now think the other BAs are just as bad though. But that could be wishful thinking.

[Rizara]

Well, you also have to realize that most marines are feared, they are akin to gods whe compared to normal humans. They are large, intimidating and honest they don't really have good people skills, simce well they are bred for war. Space marines spend there off time training for war. They do drills, practice taking there weapons apart and putting them back together again, and rarely do they do anything for relaxation or as a pastime. Also, if you were to live for hundreds of years, and all you did was kill, destroy, and make war, your mental stability would definitely be different from an average human. And yes you seemed to compare their actions to those of the word bearers, and perhaps they are similar, but their motivation and goals are vastly different. The flesh tearers are violent compared to other marines, and they kill civilians and allied guard. However, they do not kill simply for,sport, they simply few the civilians lost as casualties of,war, and if they are under the black rage in combat, it has been stated that they can no really determine friend from foe.

 

However unlike the word bearers, the flesh tearers do their actions for the emperor and betterment of humanity, and as they see it, if there are casualties, then it happens. They may have also killed many of these humans because maybe they saw to much about the flaw. Eventually they get a reputation and they are known to have their help refused. The wider spread their name gets slandered, the least likely they will get to fight in battles.

 

As for astoraths and Dante's action, they have their own reasons, perhaps as they said they view the violent sub chapter as just a tool. They will end up fighting their way to extinction and they realize it. On top of that, if the flesh tearers were deemed true traitors, they would become investigated before being exterminated, and that investigation would lead back to the parent chapter, and it would undue all they have done to try to hide their curse. After all, many marine chapters have their own agendas, and they view themselves the savior of humanity, and better than normal humans and yes the inquisition. The Marines were created by the emperor, they are his to command, and since he is well, on life support, many of them still view themselves above those who seem to be i charge of the empire to some degree, and often do their own thing.

 

As for being cut fro the same cloth, yes they have the same gene seed, but they are not ran the same. Over the centuries they have developed different personalities and querks that the chapter is now known for, and many of those traits are from their first chapter master who reorganized them into the flesh tearers, who was known during the heresy to be a more aggressive captain in the blood angel legion and earned the nickname of the flesh tearer. It wasn't earned by being nice and sparing lives, or picking flowers and painting rainbows.

[steve!]

In the story Blood in the Machine, Seth is quite defensive of the guardsmen. At one point he's close to killing a bunch of Sanguinary Guard as they are trying to pull him from defending some Steel Legion who would die without the Flesh Tearers assistance.

 

He later only accepts a mission once Tycho agrees to send some Blood Angels to defend the area he was pulled from.

 

I believe later on in the story when he finds out an entire regiment is going to get wiped out needlessly due to the inquisitor he's with, he tries to cancel said mission.

[Lucien Eilam]

The Flesh Tearers are often presented as more sympathetic to ordinary humans than the Blood Angels. On at least two occasions, Dante has ordered the Flesh Tearers to abandon a battlefield against their objections, leaving the mortal defenders and population to certain death, for the sake of a more strategic objective or the defence of Baal.

 

Granted, they may occasionally lose control and butcher everything in front of them, and Amit and Seth would both do seemingly anything to cover that up and protect their Chapter, but in terms of general world view the Blood Angels are more coldly strategic where the Flesh Tearers have an "anyone who fights by my side is a brother" vibe.

[ChapelXIII]

This is my kind of topic. Flesh Tearers from their inception have been known for their blood lust. I mean their first Chapter Master was Nassir Amit, and that guy had both feet in the thirst from what I've read. Meanwhile other successors, such as Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine, and Blood Drinkers are all seen as exemplary chapters in the Imperium. 

 

I think what the successors are supposed to represent is the many facets of the Sanguinius himself. Blood Angels are the most balanced, Angels Sanguine represent his necessary secrets, Angels Encarmine represent his determination and drive, Flesh Tearers his Fury and Rage, and so on in the other successors.

 

Don't doubt that the Angels are indeed protectors of the Imperium and are good guys, but understand that everything has some rough edges.

 

Also this goes in explaining why Dante acts in the way that he did. He understands that even the Flesh Tearers, as wild and unpredictable as they are, have a place in the grand scheme of things.   

[Leonaides]

The Flesh Tearers are often presented as more sympathetic to ordinary humans than the Blood Angels. On at least two occasions, Dante has ordered the Flesh Tearers to abandon a battlefield against their objections, leaving the mortal defenders and population to certain death, for the sake of a more strategic objective or the defence of Baal.

 

Granted, they may occasionally lose control and butcher everything in front of them, and Amit and Seth would both do seemingly anything to cover that up and protect their Chapter, but in terms of general world view the Blood Angels are more coldly strategic where the Flesh Tearers have an "anyone who fights by my side is a brother" vibe.

Point of order - Dante can in no way 'order' the Flesh Tearers to do diddly squit if their chapter master doesnt want to do it. Maybe it just takes Dante to knock the sense of th edecision through Seths skull at the moment, but he cannot order him, nor would the Flesh Tearers abide by an order from Dante. A suggestion, a strongly worded request, or similar, but never an order.

 

And to be fair, defeating a Hive Fleet and preserving the resting place and genetic sanctity of their joint primarch is rather an important thing to do - Tyrant Guard were made from normal marine genetics, does anyone really want to see what the Hive Mind can come up with when given a Primarchs genetic template???

[Charlo]

 

And to be fair, defeating a Hive Fleet and preserving the resting place and genetic sanctity of their joint primarch is rather an important thing to do - Tyrant Guard were made from normal marine genetics, does anyone really want to see what the Hive Mind can come up with when given a Primarchs genetic template???

 

 

Holy ****! A Winged Hive Tyrant with glorious golden shining locks D:

[CastellanDeMolay]

I thought Sanguinius' tomb was on Holy Terra? 

[Rizara]

ahh man..now thats an image.   Nids with primarch DNA....there went the universe lol.   Heck even the chaos gods would unite with humanity on that one...maybe, cause once the nids have digested every living thing in the universe, only place left is another dimension, and chaos has a nice open portal to theirs right in our back yard.  

[Lucien Eilam]

Point of order - Dante can in no way 'order' the Flesh Tearers to do diddly squit if their chapter master doesnt want to do it.

Read the books. He can and does. Seth obeys the command of Tycho, a Blood Angels Captain at one point. Space Marines routinely appoint an overall commander when multiple Chapters fight side by side, and don't subsequently spend the entire campaign asking each other nicely. What they want is subordinate to honour and duty, and they're bound to obey that commander. They recognise seniority - Seth accepts Dante as "first among equals". What do you think he's doing on trial? Seth submits voluntarily to the council of Blood Angels successors.

 

It doesn't make one Chapter subordinate to another, but it doesn't have to.

[Charlo]

 

Point of order - Dante can in no way 'order' the Flesh Tearers to do diddly squit if their chapter master doesnt want to do it.

Read the books. He can and does. Seth obeys the command of Tycho, a Blood Angels Captain at one point. Space Marines routinely appoint an overall commander when multiple Chapters fight side by side, and don't subsequently spend the entire campaign asking each other nicely. What they want is subordinate to honour and duty, and they're bound to obey that commander. They recognise seniority - Seth accepts Dante as "first among equals". What do you think he's doing on trial? Seth submits voluntarily to the council of Blood Angels successors.

 

 

I imagine it's a system where they police each other as to avoid Heresy

[Kilofix]

I'm just saying that Chaos laughs when:

 

 

When the good guy Flesh Tearers intentionally shoot down loyalist Eagle Warrior Thunderhawks (Sons of Wrath).

 

When the good guy Flesh Tearers intentionally kill loyalist Regulars that had just helped them clear a trench (Trial by Blood: Death's Shepard).

 

When the good guy Flesh Tearers intentionally massacre an Inquisitor's entourage (Trial by Blood: Know Thyself).

 

And Dante says "Well that's ok, they're supposed to be weapons."

 

 

[Vash113]

To be perfectly fair it's not like other forces of the Imperium do not massacre Imperial Guardsmen or civilians with equal regularity, and they do it not because they are driven into a bloody frenzy by a gene-curse but because they think it's the right thing to do. Sisters of Battle, the Grey Knights, the Inquisition in general, the Flesh Tearers at least have the good sense to have some shame for their excesses.

 

Also Trial by Blood does indicate that the Flesh Tearers lose warriors to the Black Rage at a much greater rate than most of the other successors, certainly much more often than the Blood Angels themselves. Only the Angels Encarmine I believe, according to Seth at the trial, lose warriors to the Death Company at rates nearly equal to the Flesh Tearers, but not quite.

 

I actually really like the newer material on the Flesh Tearers, filling out the back-story of one of the more interesting successor chapters out there and doing a good job of painting them as fatally doomed while unswervingly loyal and dedicated to fighting and striving to the last, even if others look down upon their actions. There's nobility in that. Plus a sentiment shared by the Space Wolves is that a general cannot fight with the warriors he wants, he has to fight with the warriors he has, Seth can't try and use his warriors like they are Ultramarines, he has to use them as Flesh Tearers and if that means trying to deploy them remotely and curb the worst of their excesses in anonymity and plausible deniability... so be it.

[Spinsanity]

Only the Angels Encarmine I believe, according to Seth at the trial, lose warriors to the Death Company at rates nearly equal to the Flesh Tearers, but not quite.

Actually, it eas the Exsanguinators' Chapter Master he was talking to at that point, which is quite interesting considering I thought the chapter had already been lost, thus raising another question : when did the trial take place? And when were the Exsanguinators then lost? Or were they even lost at all?

[The Yncarne]

Perspectives change over time and with authors.

 

Rogue Trader listed several chapters with names that would startle conservative non-gamers. None of these were really given any depth in that era.

 

In second edition the violence and imagery was toned down. Anybody remember all the Eldar and human alliances or the emphasis of Khorne as a martial champion rather than a bloodthirsty murderer?

 

The changes in daemonette models could be a stand in for how things change based on how GW want to present the game to perspective customers.

 

Regarding this specific topic, narrative fiction requires more than a few names and high level historical events. With the rise of Black Library and its attendant stable of authors and work there will inevitably be changes and differences in how people, events and organizations are presented.

 

In some ways this can be a matter of scale. At a high level Blood Angels could be one of the more humane chapters. But when it comes to a story involving a handful of characters conflict is required and authors often show that conflict as emotions just as much as violence.

 

Therefore I believe there is no right answer. It depends on whatever makes a good story (which is often judged by financials, not art).

 

It is going to be difficult to have a consistent level of empathy for psychopaths bred for war. Ultimately this is all more pulp than literature with detailed characters that early 21st century anglophones identify with.