WG Terminators - A hidden gem or delusional crazy-talk?

[Snuggatron]

I normally run mine in a Land Raider Crusader, but I have deep struck them in behind a teleport beacon equipped drop pod in the past. They do a real good job mopping up whatever was in the transport the Hunters just 'sploded. Easily my favorite unit in the codex, but I just love terminators.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

.. I may need to replace my metals with plastics just for stormshield spam :p
What charecters do people find run best with terminators? I was thinking of adding a rune priest with Biomancy, terminator armour and storm bolter or an Iron priest with as many Cyber wolves can fit with them in the transport, would this work?

[DanPesci]

Over xmas i played a game where i had arjacs shieldbrothers, with a biomancy rune priest, driving up one side of the board, and a TWC w/lord deathstar running up the other. Tabled my opponent by turn 4 (and were playing 2500pts).

 

Arjacs shieldbrothers were great, despite having their land raider blown up turn one, id fired them forward enough in my first turn the they still got into combat, took down a squad, a vindicator, and an imperial knight, and still had arjac and 1 shieldbearer left standing.... Was a really really fun unit to use.

 

But aye, they were outperformed by the TWC deathstar, but then most things are in combat.

 

I love our terminators, and my mate who plays darkangels/deathwing is massively jealous of our loadout options. The fluffiness of being able to take a whole squad with every guy loaded out differently is just ace (although probably not competitve). Cant remember the last time i took a last without some form of wolf guard in it.

[Dantay VI]

Weird question for you.

 

Can 2 Wolf Guard have the same arms and armament?

 

I was in a Gaming shop, and the co-owner (who was being a bit of a loudmouth know-it-all type) was telling me how his relative had to sell off most of his Wolf Guard because they all had to be armed differently.

 

I didn't have the codex with me, so thought better to keep me gob shut and let him think me a nut-job, than open my cakehole and confirm it to him... Surely he was mouthing off and it is pure Hokum?

 

I have 55-60 terminators of all configurations and I find them eminently useful... And if you wish to pay a huge premium you can still run Chain Fist and Storm Shield I believe.

 

Thing is podding them in doesn't have to be a suicide mission if you pod in smartly. The combi weapon does its job, then typical viking shield wall. Weather the storm, then shoot and assault things they can kill.

 

In the meantime your relatively unmolested TWC & hunters/ claws in transports run up and turn your opponents into chew toys.

[CatSmasher]

In the old codex, you were not allowed to field two HQ with the exact same load out. I still keep to this rule quietly, but it never applies to elites.

[Frater Cornelius]

HQ rule has gon with 7ed codex and nothing like that ever existed or exists in any other section. You can copy-paste those bugger until the eagles choke. Anything else are house rules.

[Oz of the North]

Yeah, I just hate that you need a whole 10man Squad of PAWG. Couldn't we get two units of TDA without size requirements in that formation? It would've been awesome.

Though with those 10 PAWG in the drop pod can be fun with combi-plas, 20 twin-linked is just so much fun

[Wolf Guard Dan]

You should have asked him if his relative was still selling them.  Good way to get them on the cheap if they're gonna be ignorant about it.

 

I have used terminators in pods this edition and I really like them.  I usually run all with combi weapons and about half with SS and the other half with special CCWs.  Even then a determined opponent can deal with them quickly but most opponents disrespect them and don't make them a priority.

 

A ten man squad of PAWG may not be ideal but you can still make them an effective unit.  Especially if you are going Super Heavy Hunting.  Or keep them cheap and ccw and bp.  That unit is better than a Khorne beserker minus the Furious Charge. And cheaper too.  But then you miss out on the twin linking.

[tylerw]

They aren't very good units IMO, compared to most of the codex - we have so many decent-to-great units that TDA and Wolf Scouts go from being decent (in most codex) to bad (in ours). In the case of scouts, it hurts that they are not a troop choice too, but...

 

Better units, non-IC, give or take:
TWC

GH

WG

WG bikers

BC

SC bikers

Skyclaws
Dreads

Vindicator/Predator

Stormwolf

Rhino/Razorback/Drop Pod

Long Fangs

 

Like, just among the elite, they're probably the 2nd-to-last unit I would pick in most situations.

When you start looking at the rest of the codex, they drop even further - they only thing I'd probably take them over in a "direct" comparison is Fenrisian Wolves, maybe scouts (although I enjoy cheap infiltrators more than I do TDA), I guess the HS I haven't listed, maybe, um... maybe the Stormfang, although I doubt it, probably Land Raiders, which is funny because they're pretty intertwined, 

 

It's one of our worst units, and one of the worst (although very cool) units in the space marine arsenal atm too.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, funny. I consider WG, WG Bikers and GH to be total garbage. I guess in the end all comes down to taste and play-style.

[CatSmasher]

Tyler, can you elaborate on your opinion here?  What type of criteria do you prioritize when selecting units?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, this thread has already helped me with my TDA tactics. I think I'll be putting SS/SB or SS/CM in my thunderstrikes. 2+/3++ yes please. Especially for my shooty TDA units, it'll keep them alive to keep killing things. 

[Oz of the North]

KIinda off topic, but regarding thunderstrike give all termies storm shields/combi-weapon the WG leader a thunderhammer and cyclone missile, have 5 and put in drop pod and bring 1 more drop pod and formation comes in first turn with twin linked shenanigans

[tylerw]

Tyler, can you elaborate on your opinion here?  What type of criteria do you prioritize when selecting units?

 

 

I should mention that most of the games we play are heavily objectives - city fight, MoW, etc, with few games that are just relic/wipeout oriented. My "core" units to most armies are troops, drop pods, 1-2 dread, and then I flesh in around those things - typically I think to drop pod in some melta on turn 1, and have one Obj Sec pod for turn two to give myself the option to just "take" an objective, depending on the objectives I get. I own a a decent number of TDA, so it's not an issue of not having them, and I enjoy the figures and stories, so it's not that I hate them on a non-gaming level either, I just do not enjoy the (lack of) effect they have had in the games I've played.  I tend to take Ulrik a lot in my lists as one of my HQs, as his stat line always strikes me as extremely efficient (correct me if this is a misconception!).

From there, I try to flesh out my list, and it usually goes in one of 2 directions - the assault-heavy type of lists that Immer tended to play quite a bit recently, and then more of a "sit back and shoot" approach that I have started to lean on a lot, supporting 3-5 drop pods with Predators/Vindicators/Storm Wolf/Speeders - things that hit fairly hard and are not usually killed in 1 shot (although obviously this can happen).

 

My reasons for choosing stuff - first is "Will I play them in a moderately competitive environment?"  I'm not talking paid tourneys, but fun themed games against stronger armies/players. Terminators will almost never make it into my lists, and they'll almost certainly be behind WGPA and Dreadnoughts just from Elites, and due to cost, probably wolf scouts, who I feel are roughly equal in terms of cost/power, but who are just cheaper as a fun and throwaway unit.

So I like things that are inherently powerful against a lot of things - TWC obviously is great, but I don't play them as much as most, however, for 7 more points getting 1 more wound, 3 more attacks (if we're talking bolt pistol on the TWC), and Rending, it feels like they're just a lot better at their purpose than TDAs - even though they're expensive, they're still pretty efficient.

 

Next I like having units that are flexible, and here TDA start to shine a little bit. The problem is that, again, they cost 33/model, while I can get whatever combi effect I wanted on them on a WGPA for 15 less, and let's face it, the combi route TENDS to be a suicide mission. It's rare that, if the unit dropping with meltas is a real threat, that you'll be able to pop something that actually buys the points back while still keeping them in a position to shoot/assault other relevant units the next turn.

 

(As a brief aside, I do applaud dropping DWML templates all over faces. That I heartily endorse!)  Also, if I want to melta-cide, I probably might just choose to pay my troop tax into a 215 point pod unit that gets Obj Sec + 10 bodies, while still retaining 3 meltas shots the turn they arrive.  I do feel like, in our area at least, people play too many horde armies (so the sheer volume of shots mauls the TDAs) and too many high AP shots (so we're relying on a 3++ on too many rolls, on a rather expensive figure) to make TDAs very feasible.

 

So TDAs are expensive, rather flexible, but not so much more flexible than most of the units I listed to play TDAs instead.  The few things aren't very flexible on my list (mostly the assault-oriented figures, I think) are instead just a lot better for their purpose than TDAs, for the cost.

 

Another problem that TDA have is that you're paying a ton/figure, which is kind of a problem that our codex tends to have anyway - if TDA were 5-7 points cheaper/figure, I'd probably play them quite a bit more, but if I'm going with a "small figure count" army, I will probably be playing TWC/Bikers, as they are very mobile, and I want my pod units to do a mix of tying up threats to the TWC/Bikers, paying my troop tax, and possibly acting as a scalpel on problem areas of the battle field (such as key objectives and areas where I just need to drop some cover or maybe go after a warlord).  TDA can do this stuff... but I want Obj Sec as much as I can get it (without OVERLY relying on troops, which isn't ideal either!), and TDA aren't helping me out with that, at least as I read CoF and the codex.

 

 

I might come off like I hate TDA - I don't, and I even ran a random TDA deathstar a couple weeks back riding in a LRR, but I do feel that they aren't our best unit (which, in my mind, is either TWC for sheer efficiency, or FA Drop Pods for the flexibility they can give in both our codex and allies), and that they tend to be decent-to-good in a lot of areas, but not very good or great in any.  Like, if you're paired with a lot of armies that have low volumes of fire, and don't tend to shoot with a lot of high AP stuff, you'll probably have a great time with them, but otherwise, they're too much/figure for me to consider them strongly.

I may try to tweak my next game's list to include the Thunderstrike formation, as it could be fun to open up with a bunch of twinlinked shots, but I'm not sure if it is kosher to have those suckers DS on turn one, and I'm also not sure if I want to dedicate that many pods to non-troops, non-dreads, and to that many points - it seems like I will have a hard time getting much more return from Thunderstrike with 2 pods than I would from 2 Dreadnoughts, and 2 dreadnoughts seem harder to kill, plus I can get my preferred "cheap" loadout of upgrading DWML + heavy flamer on the dreads for 155/per. The WGTDA will be costing more than that just for the figures, let alone the combis, pod and DWML.

Hm, funny. I consider WG, WG Bikers and GH to be total garbage. I guess in the end all comes down to taste and play-style.

I think there is some truth to this - I know you tend towards low model count armies, and I try to avoid going too low on the models myself, but WG, WGB, and GH are all cheaper than TDAs. WGB are better at one purpose (terrifying assault on turn 1/2), while WGPA and GH are better (for the cost) in pods, imo.

[Frater Cornelius]

The reason I like WG TDA more than PAWG is that PAWG become rather useless after they blow their load and their 3+ makes them too vulnerable for melee weapons. 2+/3++ lasts a bit longer and they can be a threat in assault.

But I guess I lot of comes from me disliking foot PA models. They must either be TDA or bigger or be mounted on something if they are PA ;)

[Daevohk]

I've always liked dropped melta. I hadn't really considered dropping wg terminators with combi-melta and the more I look at it, the more I like it. Not only that, but i'm tempted to up the ante and drop 4 terms with Combi-melt/SS and attach 2 rune priests with combi-meltas. This becomes a 327pt unit with 6 melta shots out of a drop pod and potentially 2 living lightning at diff targets for a whopper of an alpha strike. Then they stick around with a 4 terminator shield wall and two rune axes to cut through things in CC. 

 

Hell, take a wolves unleashed detatchment and drop 3 units of those suckers on the enemy. I see... potential.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

Being able to pay 5 points for a combi weapon and a storm shield is just amazingly good for the price of 7 melta bombs and 3 points. Damn good. I have been working on a triangular formation of 3 pods with beacons to better mitigate the placement of my TDA packs. So far it has worked once and not worked once, but either way podding or deep striking in TDAWGs with melta is fan-freakin-tastic. Especially for their cost.

 

End of Line

 

*mumble ... damn good ...mumble*

[Guest loganwolf]

Trick with the power armoured element of the thunder strike formation is to keep them cheap, mot loose to much alpha strike and then have a use following turn 1.

 

Hide a melta bomb and power axe it he squad. Run a storm shield on the serg.mi find that around 8 combi plasma is the sweet spot.