twopounder Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I just have to ask this one question, wouldn't it be a huge slap in the face on GW's part to remove RW/DW from the FOC? Way too many people have invested into these because of the uniqueness ( not having tacticals) I have almost the entire first company and a ton of ravenwing. That's in addition to my green marines. I'm in the process of buying and building a full 36 + 6 ravenwing force with 10 black knights. I would be seriously SERIOUSLY pissed if they pulled that. Ravenwing are my primary force and the last thing I enjoy about this hobby, so let's not entertain that thought, hmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Azrael - He's a great support character and shouldn't be a lord of war. Instead he should have rules that allow him to mess with the enemy's deployment and remain otherwise unchanged. Belial - This should be our lord of war. He did go toe-to-toe with Gazkghul and survive afterall. He's also our only special character in terminator armor. They could turn him into a close combat power house that can take a meaner version of the Flail of the Unforgiven. Why is our Chapter Master and in essence the leader of the Dark Angels LEGION is not a Lord of War, but his flunky... who lost against Ghazghkull is? In fluff rank does not support this idea. Asmodai - Make him cause fear. I could've sworn that Asmodai already has Fear. Overall, if GW wants to make more money on DA, they need to increase our synergy with other chapters and IG. Currently there is little reason for any other imperial force to ally DA to their normal army. Why synergy? I mean even in all of our fluff... DA is more of a loner, works well with their successors but don't play nice with others. I would want the book to stand on its own without allies if possible.... instead of increasing the synergy for Allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 @Dukero: I can't see that. Why would they remove them from the FoC? They are perfectly legitimate Elites and FA units as they stand. And fluff-wise they always provided a valuable supporting role. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Azrael - He's a great support character and shouldn't be a lord of war. Instead he should have rules that allow him to mess with the enemy's deployment and remain otherwise unchanged. Belial - This should be our lord of war. He did go toe-to-toe with Gazkghul and survive afterall. He's also our only special character in terminator armor. They could turn him into a close combat power house that can take a meaner version of the Flail of the Unforgiven. Why is our Chapter Master and in essence the leader of the Dark Angels LEGION is not a Lord of War, but his flunky... who lost against Ghazghkull is? In fluff rank does not support this idea. Asmodai - Make him cause fear. I could've sworn that Asmodai already has Fear. Overall, if GW wants to make more money on DA, they need to increase our synergy with other chapters and IG. Currently there is little reason for any other imperial force to ally DA to their normal army. Why synergy? I mean even in all of our fluff... DA is more of a loner, works well with their successors but don't play nice with others. I would want the book to stand on its own without allies if possible.... instead of increasing the synergy for Allies. I think you need to re-read my post... I said nothing of DA players taking allies.... Chapter masters do not need to be a lord of war. It does not mean they are the best fighter in the entire army. In fact, it's a bit ironic that you're suggesting Azrael should be a professional bullet catcher in lieu of a master strategist. :) We aren't space wolves. We don't need to have monster close combat units outside of our knights. It's tactically unsound. I'll take tactically sound over high-cost bullet sponge any day. @twopounder: I can't see that. Why would they remove them from the FoC? They are perfectly legitimate Elites and FA units as they stand. And fluff-wise they always provided a valuable supporting role. Cheers I Not sure what you mean. I didn't recommend removing anything from the FOC. What unit are you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 @twopounder: I can't see that. Why would they remove them from the FoC? They are perfectly legitimate Elites and FA units as they stand. And fluff-wise they always provided a valuable supporting role. Cheers I Not sure what you mean. I didn't recommend removing anything from the FOC. What unit are you referring to? Ah apologies it wasn't you it was Dukero !! from http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301634-possible-new-da-codex-for-2015/?p=3915168 . You're in the clear twopounder :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Azrael - He's a great support character and shouldn't be a lord of war. Instead he should have rules that allow him to mess with the enemy's deployment and remain otherwise unchanged. Belial - This should be our lord of war. He did go toe-to-toe with Gazkghul and survive afterall. He's also our only special character in terminator armor. They could turn him into a close combat power house that can take a meaner version of the Flail of the Unforgiven. Why is our Chapter Master and in essence the leader of the Dark Angels LEGION is not a Lord of War, but his flunky... who lost against Ghazghkull is? In fluff rank does not support this idea. Asmodai - Make him cause fear. I could've sworn that Asmodai already has Fear. Overall, if GW wants to make more money on DA, they need to increase our synergy with other chapters and IG. Currently there is little reason for any other imperial force to ally DA to their normal army. Why synergy? I mean even in all of our fluff... DA is more of a loner, works well with their successors but don't play nice with others. I would want the book to stand on its own without allies if possible.... instead of increasing the synergy for Allies. I think you need to re-read my post... I said nothing of DA players taking allies.... Chapter masters do not need to be a lord of war. It does not mean they are the best fighter in the entire army. In fact, it's a bit ironic that you're suggesting Azrael should be a professional bullet catcher in lieu of a master strategist. We aren't space wolves. We don't need to have monster close combat units outside of our knights. It's tactically unsound. I'll take tactically sound over high-cost bullet sponge any day. The quote I was quoting was you suggesting that increasing synergy with other Chapters and IG..... If not by taking allies or taken as allies in another detachment, how are we gonna achieve that? Or do you want your codex to be reduced to Inquisition level where they are the ultimate synergy machine. I understand that you said that in order for GW to increase their financial revenues, but i believe that there are other ways to do it for the financial gain without making us akin of codex inquisition. Formations with exact of numbers of units would push the amount of models sold. Chapter Masters don't have to be Lord of War true... but making Captain instead of a Chapter Master as a Lord of War would make it strange... more so than Chapter Master becoming LoW. All 7th ed codex too has Chapter Master as LoW. More in line with the current design. And Monster Close Combat? I'm sorry i don't understand... i never insinuate that we need a monster close combat. But what i did say was that to follow what other 7th ed codex already set in precedent barring Gabriel Seth.... that all Chapter Master has an AP2 weapon and Eternal Warrior. Why Azrael being the lone kid that don't have that is beyond me. Edit: BTW.... from what statement i made that i sound like i want Azrael to be a bullet sponge? Please enlightened me. As it is right now, Azrael is used in a unit that are meant to be bullet sponge for the 4++ he confers. Aren't you a bit tired of that role? I know i am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I just have to ask this one question, wouldn't it be a huge slap in the face on GW's part to remove RW/DW from the FOC? Way too many people have invested into these because of the uniqueness ( not having tacticals) I have almost the entire first company and a ton of ravenwing. That's in addition to my green marines. I'm in the process of buying and building a full 36 + 6 ravenwing force with 10 black knights. I would be seriously SERIOUSLY pissed if they pulled that. Ravenwing are my primary force and the last thing I enjoy about this hobby, so let's not entertain that thought, hmm? But again : if they release a special FOC for RW where is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinlinked Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I don't see why we need characters unlocking ravenwing and deathwing as troops. Should not be a formation either. Should be simply standard even if a company master is picked. Special characters should be good enough for selection either way and Dsrk Angels troops should be flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I don't see why we need characters unlocking ravenwing and deathwing as troops. Should not be a formation either. Should be simply standard even if a company master is picked. Special characters should be good enough for selection either way and Dsrk Angels troops should be flexible. The fact that DA has always fielded Ravenwing and Deathwing on their own (e.g pure RW and DW armies) is why they should have their own formations. BA got an Elite army formation in one the their books DA will most likely get one too. Taking away our ability to take a pure Ravenwing or Deathwing army would kill people's interest in Dark Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinlinked Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I'm saying just make them group choices regardless of who the warlord is.... We also need more Chapter traits as that's onenof the big elements of what makes any Chapter unique Troop not group - autocorrect got me there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 The more I think about it the more I can live with formations and detachments for ravenwing and deathwing, maybe we'll even get a deathraven formation with some awesome rules. Azrael as a lord of war I can live with as long as the give him a bit of a boost, AP 2 sword and eternal warrior at least. Now if only to sell kits they better buff the flyers and vengeance, tweak the point costs and adjust the profile of their non-standard weapons. Maybe a boost the the profile of our big speeders, at least another hull point. I'm going to assume that this coming release is to normalize the rules for 7th edition, streamline the codex and balance the codex (in that order of importance). I've been spending some time with the grey knight codex to help get a feel of the trend. Ravenwing and Deathwing units really do have too many special rules attached to them. I can see something like this coming about: Deathwing: Deathwing units are fearless, furthermore all deathwing units in reserve may choose to enter play on turn one if they do so the may re-roll all misses that shooting phase. Ravenwing: Ravenwing units have the; Scout, Hit and Run, and Skilled Rider USR. One of my hopes that actually seems plausible is to have them simplify the hell out of Deathwing Knights, who have special rules on top of special rules with special weapons with special rules. Drop all the BS, make the Mace of Absolution a mini Thunder Hammer S 6 AP 2 Specialist Weapon, Concussive. Make the Flail a S 10 Hammer. Send them on their way to wreak havoc, and before you say I'm crazy thats way too OP, actually sit back and think about the unit and similar units in other codexes. On a personal note my biggest fear is that they nerf Black Knights. I'm expecting to loose rad shells, and I'm emotionally prepared for that, but if they nerf the hammers or the talons, or the unit goes up in points... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Custom FOC is the only thing I would accept. Formations will feel like a limitation, especially due to it containing set units as opposed to giving you a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Formations can give you plenty of choice too. Let's do a hypothetical DW/RW formation: Dark Angels' Scourge The Heretic formation. Mandatory: 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite. Optional: 1 HQ, 4 Troops, 3 Elite, 3 Fast, 3 Heavy. ----------- HQ: 1-2. From Belial or Sammael, Master, Librarian or interrogator-Chaplain. Generic characters must either wear terminator armour or ride a bike. Techmarine (0-1) in terminator armour or on bike. Elites: 1-4. From DWKs (max-3), RWBKs (max-3), Dreadnoughts and/or Contemptor Dreadnoughts (max-4), DW and/or RW command squads (max-1 of each). Troops: 2-6. From DW squads and/or RWA squadrons. Fast Attack: 0-3. RWS squadrons and/or Nephilim and/or Dark Talon and/or Darkshroud. Heavy Support: 0-3. From Land Raiders of any variant. Fortifications: 0. Lords of war: 0-1. Azrael. • Assuming Azzy becomes a Lord of War • And yes moving RWBKs to the Elites slot <_<. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hm, I think you guys need to learn the difference between a FOC and Formation. Isiah, what you presented is a custom FOC, much like Nemesis Strike Force, Wolves Unleashed Detachment or Baal Strike Force. A Formation is a set of units with little to no choice. They usually have historical background. Examples are the Librarius Conclave, Void Claws or Thunderstrike from COF, all that rubbish from the Shield of Baal books. What you all wish is the former, an alternate FOC that allows us to take a single wing to the table. What you do not want is wings being limited to Formations that tell you to take exactly three units of RW and nothing else (for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 [editing] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Formations aren't necessarily that restrictive. Look at the Librarius Conclave for instance. It is much more restrictive than an alternative FOC. Even LibCon tells you exactly what units you need to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 And I did say hypothetical. Let's compromise and call it a detachment rather than a formation if that's helpful as yes formations don't list specific FoC slots. Happy to have a crack at pure DW formation for fun and giggles - although I'm not sure it passes the test of a pukka formation :). Belial 0-1 interrogator-chaplain 0-1 librarian in termy armour 0-1 master in terminator librarian 1-3 DWKs 0-1 DWCS 0-3 Dreadnoughts / contemptor dreadnoughts 2-6 DW squads 0-3 Land Raiders (any variant) Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Yeah, detachment sounds good enough :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 A Company Formation is usually a very strict one... A DW formation should be Like: - Belial - 1 Interrogator-chaplain - 1 Deathwing Command Squad - 10 Deathwing Terminator Squads - 3 Deathwing Knights Squads - 3 Venerable Dreadnought - 5 Land Raiders (of any kind) More or less Like this.. A alternative CAD FOC is more Like this Mandatory: 1 HQ * 3 Élites ** Optional: 1 HQ * 13 Élites ** 4 Heavy Support *** * Belial or Interrogator-Chaplain/Company Master/Librarian that MUST wear TDA ** up to 10 DWCS,DWTS,DWK, up to 6 Venerable dreadnought, only Units with IC special rules and/or DW veichle upgrade va be taken *** only LR,LRC,LRR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mc_luhvin Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I had an itnterersting idea today while at work, that would help keep both the fluff and crunch of the dark angels interesting, an idea that utilises the watchers of the dark, now while the DWK's can already purchase a watcher in the dark of sorts, I was thinking it would be cool to have an army wide effect of watchers 'showing up to help unpredictably' as I think it I read in the codex, with watchers more like to appear around higher ranking officers (veteran seargeants, etc) A rule would be as follows, "Watchers In the dark" All veteran seargeants models ( including DWK RWBK and deathwing seargeants) roll a d6 before deployment, on a 4+ a watcher in the dark appears to aid the seargeant (or not), ( independent characters receive one a 2+) from here a further table is rolled on with a d6 and the watchers can provide additional, minor rules, (a one could be nothing, as no one can predict where the watchers will appear, or what they do) These rules affect the entire squad the seargeant or independent charachter is attarched too, an will go away when te sergeant dies, even a simple rule like adamantium will would be cool enough to recive, could need some major tweaking, but I think it could be very fluffy for he codex, thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 That would be too interesting for a 7ed codex, and waaaay too awesome :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Agreed I've always liked the idea of Watchers playing more of a role in gameplay.There was an old topic prior to (4th Edition I think) where this was discussed. It's no good, can't remember what came out of it. Be good to explore this again :) For instance: • 3pts each. 1 per HQ or Elite unit. Dice for random affect. One could be: Would be placed upon deployment using mechanic similar to servo-skulls, or could remain with host unit. Watchers would require an enemy to pass a Ld test to allow them to approach within 12" of them. <edit> Probably not the right topic to be discussing this in detail </edit> Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I should have been more specific in my previous post. The codex would have to have to give you the ability to take a primary detachment of Greenwing, Ravenwing, or Deathwing. Beyond that one or two Ravenwing/Deathwing/Doublewing formations could be very useful. The more I think about it the more I can see Deathwing Assault being turned into a Formation Special Rule. Also to comment on the conversation above, watchers as 'Dark Angels Servo Skulls' would be awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I should have been more specific in my previous post. The codex would have to have to give you the ability to take a primary detachment of Greenwing, Ravenwing, or Deathwing. Beyond that one or two Ravenwing/Deathwing/Doublewing formations could be very useful. The more I think about it the more I can see Deathwing Assault being turned into a Formation Special Rule. Also to comment on the conversation above, watchers as 'Dark Angels Servo Skulls' would be awesome. considering how a battleforged army works now it's not unlikely to think about 3 different FoC in the codex (mixed wing, ravenwing only, Deathwing only) that can be used as various Combined Arms detachements... The problem is when you will use DA as allies cause you will not be able to use any of the special FOC cause you MUST use the allied detachment only... And you cannot build a force like the RW helping CF on Rtnn to defeat the orks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Wouldn't that be solved by having Ravenwing and Deathwing formations? Choose which ever FOC you want for your core and then add formations for flavor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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