thade Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It sounds to me that Darius is saying GK are effectively "always the Beatdown" which is weird to think about; I just played my first game of 7th today, so I'll need to collect data before I can do anything more than take you at your word there for now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3917454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Personally, I think you should only use the way of the Water Warrior if you think you are the under dog. SR made some good points, but they aren't strictly Water Warrior. The key aspect of the Water Warrior is that it always takes the path of least resistance; it is reactive in nature, and I would avoid this if I could. I prefer to be proactive; I like to call the shots. However, being reactive isn't too bad if you are playing a game where objectives can change from turn to turn; this is were Water Warriors have an advantage over Earth Warriors (who are not able to react very well). In reality many lists are more complicated than being just one style or another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3917463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 It sounds to me that Darius is saying GK are effectively "always the Beatdown" which is weird to think about; I just played my first game of 7th today, so I'll need to collect data before I can do anything more than take you at your word there for now. We don't have the staying power for protracted fights, or for playing the 'sit on objectives' game. Shooting armies demolish us if we try and do that. Personally, I think you should only use the way of the Water Warrior if you think you are the under dog. SR made some good points, but they aren't strictly Water Warrior. The key aspect of the Water Warrior is that it always takes the path of least resistance; it is reactive in nature, and I would avoid this if I could. I prefer to be proactive; I like to call the shots. However, being reactive isn't too bad if you are playing a game where objectives can change from turn to turn; this is were Water Warriors have an advantage over Earth Warriors (who are not able to react very well). In reality many lists are more complicated than being just one style or another. Which we can't do at all. We can't deploy and wait for our opponent to make a mistake, or be out of position etc. Our game plan is to land in their lines Turn 1 and cripple their army, then never let up the pressure. If you don't shut down your opponents firepower sufficiently Turn 1, you are at serious risk of being table wiped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3917552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I agree with Darius completely. I always reflect on my losses and the games I've lost with GK I've usually found I wasn't aggressive enough or I spread myself out. If 40k had a "tempo" strategy GK would be the poster boys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3917694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 With GK, you have to set the pace and keep pushing. The moment you start reacting, you've lost. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3918461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 More than anything, I feel that reacting doesn't work because we don't have a lot of answers besides 'try and get Rends' with shooting, or more generally 'get into melee'. It is quite frustrating at times how little variation there is in our army. Our list of options is low to begin with, and it's all geared towards a couple of play styles, some of which aren't even viable without Allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3918731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Play like an Inquisitor ;) You have a mission objective, go after it. Hit hard, hit fast, do your deal, get out. It's not about "warfare"... there's the Guard and the standard Space Marines for that. Head of the serpent and all that after all... Modified for Mission Objectives, of course. But otherwise I'd tend to agree. I've often said the "Inquisition forces" (Grey Knights, Adepta Sororitas, and the Inquisition itself) are NOT for standard protracted warfare. We're short range, city fight, brutal up close select target warfare. Never fight fair, never go line vs line. Play to win, as the ends justify the means (to us). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3918895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Well obviously no one fights fair haha, 40k is all about leveraging your strengths against your opponents weaknesses ;) its how games are won. But xenos have a plethora of good units and fallback options in case different scenarios crop up. For example, against a melee army, Tau have Supporting Fire, markerlights that can boost said Overwatch overlap, Assault moves on most of their battlesuits, and cheap infantry to block charge routes for non-Jump Infantry assault units. Against a ranged army, Tau generally outshoot them anyway. For us, it's almost always 'don't care what the enemy are doing, get into melee, try and take out important stuff on the way in with psycannon'. Inquisition aren't an army, they're a special Ally detachment ;) . Sisters I don't know about, they're urban warfare specialists with some funky buffs they can turn on once per game. Their lack of melee ability hurts (they can be easily beaten on by chaff, as T3 makes it easy to drag them down with sheer attacks), and they're a little overpriced for firefights (again, T3 means they on average lose more girls). As I understand it they're mostly a mech army these days, riding around in Repressors and Immolators with Exorcist fire support. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3918989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sisters use to be great, but the edition creep has crept past them by quite a bit. Still waiting to see if GW will Squat them or not. It would be a shame if they did. As to GK and CC, actually I tend to avoid CC for as long as possible, and only seek CC to either hide from shooting or to finish off/pin a problematic enemy unit. Yes, we shine in CC, but 7th is not a CC friendly addition. In this, I still favor SR's position of CC'ing with GK. Right now, the only units I seek CC with are my NDKs and IKs. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sisters use to be great, but the edition creep has crept past them by quite a bit. You're the only person I've seen say this recently; Sisters players have having a very good time of it per their own reports in the Adepta Sororitas forum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sisters use to be great, but the edition creep has crept past them by quite a bit. Still waiting to see if GW will Squat them or not. It would be a shame if they did. Seeing that they featured in the recent Shield of Baal campaign quite heavily, I doubt they'll be removed from the game. They're just being ignored by GW at the moment, which is really business as usual (shrug) As to GK and CC, actually I tend to avoid CC for as long as possible, and only seek CC to either hide from shooting or to finish off/pin a problematic enemy unit. Yes, we shine in CC, but 7th is not a CC friendly addition. In this, I still favor SR's position of CC'ing with GK. Right now, the only units I seek CC with are my NDKs and IKs. The longer you stay out of melee, the less effective our units are. They're really not designed for protracted firefights, especially not against xenos. I know 7th is hardly conducive to this, but it's an aspect of our army we can't escape; we're just so much better in melee than we are at range. Most of our psychic powers are geared towards it, and our Nemesis Strikeforce pushes the idea heavily (ie a Turn 1 alpha strike with shooting, followed by a Turn 2 assault). You're the only person I've seen say this recently; Sisters players have having a very good time of it per their own reports in the Adepta Sororitas forum. 'Echo chamber' I think you mean ;) they have their mech build that sorta works, but outside of that they're in real trouble. Their Faith powers are the worst they've ever been (their 3rd edition incarnation is STILL the best version of Sisters GW ever did). They rely heavily on Immolators, Exorcists and Retributors/Dominions to do most of the work, Seraphim don't know if they wanna be an assault unit or a shooty harassment, and their Troops/Elites are abysmal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sisters use to be great, but the edition creep has crept past them by quite a bit. You're the only person I've seen say this recently; Sisters players have having a very good time of it per their own reports in the Adepta Sororitas forum. Sister players are like Grey Knight players (or in my case, are both in one), and are making the most out if what they have. Neither are in a great place, but at least the GK's have a physical codex. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 And plastic.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sister have plastic ... Rhinos. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Who needs plastic? Easier to beat down "That One Guy" with an army case filled with all pewter figures ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sister players are like Grey Knight players (or in my case, are both in one), and are making the most out if what they have. Neither are in a great place, but at least the GK's have a physical codex. Sister have plastic ... Rhinos. Hey guys let's be nice and not rub salt in the wound ;) it's not our fault GW can't be bothered making new plastic kits for Sisters Who needs plastic? Easier to beat down "That One Guy" with an army case filled with all pewter figures I hear putting the Pentient Engine in a sock also works wonders :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3919924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The sock just cushions the blow... Throw it like you're playing dodgeball! But those tactics are definitely not water warrior :) Still, I think that I'm firmly in the "GK must be all-out agressor" camps. WE pay a huge premium-per-model, so we must ensure that our models move-shoot-assault ASAP to get the most out of them. Every other turn, I feel we'll lose more to shooting than we can dish out. The epitome of this being the NDK. If used reactively, it's a lesser riptide... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3920215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Agreed. I think even GW realised how useless DK's are without mobility, hence the massive downgrade to the teleporter cost, and the reduction for ranged weapons (plus changing the two most ignored weapons into viable options). It's a problem with a lot of ground MC's, that they're a big chunk of points that doesn't do much outside of melee. 'Tides, Wraithknights and Exocrines are kinda the exception that proves the rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301699-is-it-time-to-return-to-the-water-warrior/page/2/#findComment-3921290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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