A month in, are people happy with the new Codex?

[Morticon]

Compared to the other 7th dexes, there are plenty of things that are viable. Its Eldar and Tau that are currently skewing our perspective on what is competitive. Once these get taken down a peg, I think things will even out much more.

 

So much of this ^

[SamaNagol]

The internal balance on the Ork, GK and Dark Eldar books are terrible. So many unusable and irrelevant units in those books.

 

More so than 6th edition, the 7th edition books have mostly been so mono build it's boring. Reliant on one specific formation to work using a very specific selection of units.

[Fahlnor]

The internal balance on the Ork, GK and Dark Eldar books are terrible. So many unusable and irrelevant units in those books.

 

More so than 6th edition, the 7th edition books have mostly been so mono build it's boring. Reliant on one specific formation to work using a very specific selection of units.

I find the book a bit limiting.  I can't imagine not bringing a five-man squad of Assault Marines in a Drop Pod with meltaguns.  For 115 points, three meltaguns in my opponent's backfield is too good to say "no" to.

 

I feel like we're going to see a lot of redundant unit entries where the high number of options (in, say, the Elites section) will mean that a bunch of units will just never, ever be taken.  That makes me a little bit sad.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

Just because 5-man assault marines in a pod is a good deal, doesn't mean that you're limited in my view. You can easily build your lists many other ways.

 

I can't speak to Ork, GK, or Dark Eldar. The Imperial Guard codex is far from mono-build, but I firmly believe this is because Guard players tend to be a certain type and bring a different approach. If you wanted to, you could find a good build and declare IG "monobuild" (and maybe some do, given the prevalence of Paskunisher as HQ). I think a lot of what you get out of a codex is what you put into it.

 

I don't see how anyone can seriously complain about our new codex. Much needed price drops have me dancing for joy over my Sanguinary Guard and jump DC being much more useable. I'm seeing others bringing jumper lists back after they were deemed almost unuseable in 7th. I'm seeing other different lists. It's true that the troop options are a bit more limited, but there are still many ways to skin that cat. I am happy with the codex and if Tau and Eldar get toned-down I think that things will be quite balance. Since everyone seems to think their codices "suck" that means there's got to be some parity there.

[bushman101]

mostly like our codex.

I wish we had kept a few things from the previous 'dex, but that will pass as I play more games

[SamaNagol]

Guard players aren't any 'better' or 'worse' than other faction players, that's a completely unfounded statement.

 

But I bet you will find Wyvern batteries taking up an HS slots in most winning builds. And practically zero Sentinels.

 

Guard just happen to be fortunate enough to have a slightly larger number of viable units they can take. Same as Vanilla Marines, Eldar and Tau. And to a lesser extent Chaos Daemons.

 

I would never go so far as to say that the BA book is bad. It's perfectly servicable and if you win with it you can be proud that you did so because of good player skill rather than a point and click army. Anyone who won with BA in late 5th and 6th can say the same thing.

 

But it is a shame that some things just aren't good. And some slots are just overloaded.

And don't even get me started on GW's inability to make many of their oldest and most recognised Marine units work

[Ishagu]

Some interesting negativity.

I've read through the book and see plenty of great units:

 

-Various good HQs

-Best Tactical Marines of any loyalists

-Best Assault Marines of any loyalists

-Useful Fragioso Dreads

-Grav Bikers

-Death Company

-Sanguinary Guard

-Fast Predators

-Dante

 

 

Exactly what is so poor??

[SamaNagol]

-Correct. And the Sanguinary Priest is definitely a nice addition to the HQ slot. Mephiston is pretty much irrelevant to me at the moment. I like Astorath though. Tycho got shafted lol

-I would say this is factually incorrect. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists shoot better. Iron Hands have more durable ObSec transports. White Scars can feasibly Scout in their Rhinos and gain Hit & Run which is useful for survival. And Space Wolf Grey Hunters are definitely still the best. Although Fast Rhinos and Heavy Flamers are indeed fun.

-Yup, because they get Meltaguns and free Transports. But other loyalists do Meltaguns better. They ironically aren't that great at Assault still, outside of the Baal detachment.

-Fragioso Dreads are ok. But they took a points increase and a stats decrease. And they are in a packed Elites slot. I actually quite like double Heavy Flamer Fist Furiosos. Rending templates are cool and all, but 2 S5 AP4 templates are doing more to the sort of units you will see on objectives. If you want anti tank, see Melta Pod Assault Marines.

-Grav Bikers... Nah I'm alright thanks.

-Death Company got worse unless you want to put jump packs on them and then they got worse but cheaper. And you can't get re rolls to wound anymore unless you take an expensive HQ who comes with a Jump Pack as standard... so no Drop Pod for him.

-Sanguinary Guard are the big winners in this book. No arguments here. You do still need to build around them to make them work, and probably take the Baal detachment as well.

-Fast Predators are still Predators which suck. Baals got nerfed, no Scout removes most of their previous strategies. Vindicators are nice now though.

-Dante, he also made out like a bandit. Seth is god awful though.

[Arkangilos]

-Correct. And the Sanguinary Priest is definitely a nice addition to the HQ slot. Mephiston is pretty much irrelevant to me at the moment. I like Astorath though. Tycho got shafted lol

-I would say this is factually incorrect. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists shoot better. Iron Hands have more durable ObSec transports. White Scars can feasibly Scout in their Rhinos and gain Hit & Run which is useful for survival. And Space Wolf Grey Hunters are definitely still the best. Although Fast Rhinos and Heavy Flamers are indeed fun.

-Yup, because they get Meltaguns and free Transports. But other loyalists do Meltaguns better. They ironically aren't that great at Assault still, outside of the Baal detachment.

-Fragioso Dreads are ok. But they took a points increase and a stats decrease. And they are in a packed Elites slot. I actually quite like double Heavy Flamer Fist Furiosos. Rending templates are cool and all, but 2 S5 AP4 templates are doing more to the sort of units you will see on objectives. If you want anti tank, see Melta Pod Assault Marines.

-Grav Bikers... Nah I'm alright thanks.

-Death Company got worse unless you want to put jump packs on them and then they got worse but cheaper. And you can't get re rolls to wound anymore unless you take an expensive HQ who comes with a Jump Pack as standard... so no Drop Pod for him.

-Sanguinary Guard are the big winners in this book. No arguments here. You do still need to build around them to make them work, and probably take the Baal detachment as well.

-Fast Predators are still Predators which suck. Baals got nerfed, no Scout removes most of their previous strategies. Vindicators are nice now though.

-Dante, he also made out like a bandit. Seth is god awful though.

Your arguments are kind of proof that we have a great book. I've seen numerous points about how units you said weren't viable were the best units to get, and I've seen arguments that some of the units you praised were useless. 

 

Basically, I keep seeing debates over what lists are the best, and that shows that we have a great, well rounded list.

 

Mono-list dex's are the ones I have a problem with.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I tend to agree with Arkangilos. SamaNagol, you seem like you're just being negative for the sake of being negative here.

 

Seems to me we're already proving through your own posts that the codex is not "mono build". You just said Sanguinary Guard got a boost but you need to build a list around them. So be it, same can be said for many great units out there ... but I daresay that a list built around Sanguinary Guard is going to look different than the ASM melta drop pod lists you were talking about.

 

I've seen other people say that Seth is decent for his points. I haven't used him but this is clearly something reasonable people can disagree on.

 

Really not understanding how Death Company got worse. Sure, they took a hit on WS but this hit makes sense and is more than compensated for by cheap jump packs, the fact that they're scoring, and you can take more than one unit of them now, plus they can now be joined by characters. You've got to give a little to get a little in my view. But in any event on the whole it seems to me that they got stronger. Is +1WS seriously so much better than all that other stuff? Not for my money.

 

As for the crowded Elites slot, the codex does give us the Baal Strike Force Detachment which mitigates this. And really, if you are going to say that this detachment is bad, then I don't know what I can say to you. Sure it's not perfect but nothing is -- everything is a trade off in this game and I love the fact that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

If some armies can have their cake and eat it too, then let them, I'm not interested and I'm not going to bash our codex because someone else has one that is perceived as "better".

[Deschenus Maximus]

-Correct. And the Sanguinary Priest is definitely a nice addition to the HQ slot. Mephiston is pretty much irrelevant to me at the moment. I like Astorath though. Tycho got shafted lol

 

I'd agree that our Special Chars are pretty weak, on the whole. Thankfully, the generic HQs are solid.

 

-I would say this is factually incorrect. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists shoot better. Iron Hands have more durable ObSec transports. White Scars can feasibly Scout in their Rhinos and gain Hit & Run which is useful for survival. And Space Wolf Grey Hunters are definitely still the best. Although Fast Rhinos and Heavy Flamers are indeed fun.

 

Ultras shoot better for a turn. That's it. Fists do shoot better all the time but they don't have access to Heavy Flamers, which is sort of a big deal. IWND transports is utterly irrelevant; I used to play IH when the dex came out, and I can't remember a single instance - NOT A SINGLE ONE - where IWND saved one of my vehicles. I do like Scout/H&R WS Tacs, I will admit. And I'd take pod BA Tacs over Hunters any day.

 

-Yup, because they get Meltaguns and free Transports. But other loyalists do Meltaguns better. They ironically aren't that great at Assault still, outside of the Baal detachment.

 

I'll give you that.

 

-Fragioso Dreads are ok. But they took a points increase and a stats decrease.

 

Stats decrease that doesn't really matter, and a points increase that is barely noticeable.

 

And they are in a packed Elites slot.

 

That's true, but every slot except Troops is packed now.

 

I actually quite like double Heavy Flamer Fist Furiosos. Rending templates are cool and all, but 2 S5 AP4 templates are doing more to the sort of units you will see on objectives. If you want anti tank, see Melta Pod Assault Marines.

 

The beauty of pod Fragiosos is that it can do both at the same time. That's why I consider them better than double HF Furiosos. And they're cheaper too.

 

-Grav Bikers... Nah I'm alright thanks.

 

Why? Its one of the strongest unit in the book now. Yes, Codex Marines do them better, but that doesn't make them bad.

 

-Death Company got worse unless you want to put jump packs on them and then they got worse but cheaper. And you can't get re rolls to wound anymore unless you take an expensive HQ who comes with a Jump Pack as standard... so no Drop Pod for him.

 

The WS decrease doesn't matter when you consider that you can get more than 50% extra JP DC for what you used to pay for them. Every other consideration is irrelevant because JP DC are the superior option, bar none.

 

-Sanguinary Guard are the big winners in this book. No arguments here. You do still need to build around them to make them work, and probably take the Baal detachment as well.

 

I'm actually not that enamoured with them as a lot of folks are. Grav and plasma will still ruin their day. Ah if only they had access to stormshields!

 

-Fast Predators are still Predators which suck. Baals got nerfed, no Scout removes most of their previous strategies. Vindicators are nice now though.

 

You do have a point there. Fast Preds were awesome in 5th, but they're not all that hot anymore. Baals suck baals... I mean balls. True about the Vindi.

 

-Dante, he also made out like a bandit. Seth is god awful though.

 

True.

 

Comments in red.

[SamaNagol]

No, the list built around Sang Guard relies on drop Melta to do the boring work.

 

CAD:

Priest with Relic stuff and Warlord

10 tacs in a pod with flamer

5 scouts

3 Melta Pods

 

Baal Detachment

Astorath

Dante

8 SG with Banner and a couple fists

5 Scouts

5 Scouts

3 Melta Pods

 

Sure Grav is the natural enemy of Sanguinary Guard. I said that from the get go. But with that many threats coming down you can really vaporise a lot of the Grav platforms turn 1. It's a strong list. It's also clearly very spammy.

I'm not being negative for no reason, I'm just a bit disappointed that units were nerfed for no good reason. And some things were so obviously over buffed so as to be a focal point for the army like Sanguinary Guard for their points.

[Shaezus]

I can understand Sama's point, however I do not agree that our dex is now one-dimensional. Sure, certain builds are more competitive than others but this is the case with any dex. And having to use formations to get the best out of other units is not one-dimensional but quite the opposite.

 

I do think baals losing scout took the oomph out of mech lists but with grav bikers now you can still run an effective mech force. Swings and roundabouts but certainly not one dimensional.

 

Pods, packs, bikes and mech plus a whole plethora of strong characters make for a good variety of strong armies.

[Deschenus Maximus]

No offence, Sama, but I don't call that a strong list.

 

 

And its not just Grav that gives SG a bad time; plasma does too. You might be able to maul enough of the opponent's gav units to stand a chance, but plasma is generaly not as concentrated, so will be harder to counter.

[LordCommanderSamirus]

I know theyre not competitive but has anyone thought to try simply using all their assault marines as vanguard and just run the archangels detachment?

[JamesI]

I know theyre not competitive but has anyone thought to try simply using all their assault marines as vanguard and just run the archangels detachment?

I have.  Several times. One of my assault squads used to be a Veteran Assault Squad back in 4th anyway, so its really like coming back to what they used to be.

[Morticon]

No offence, Sama, but I don't call that a strong list.

 

 

And its not just Grav that gives SG a bad time; plasma does too. You might be able to maul enough of the opponent's gav units to stand a chance, but plasma is generaly not as concentrated, so will be harder to counter.

 

Not sure about that hey! Didnt work out the points, but i think 24 dropping melta will wreck face of most people :/  

thought, the criticism and concerns about SG are still valid.  It's why I like the priest with them.  Dante or a tanky captain is good too. 

 

[Frater Cornelius]

No. It's one dimensional.

 

I have to agree. SW and BA are the functionally the best codices in 6ed. However, let me tell you a little story. I usually shave with a straight razor. Yes, it may take longer, requires skill and plenty of preparation, but it is very enjoyable.

Yesterday, I tried a dry shave for the first time, mainly because I need a less time consuming method for the morning. It was alright actually, very quick and worked out okay. But it was boring. It isn't something you call an experience.

And that is precisely my problem with BA and SW. They are very functional, but bland. I rather jump through a few hoops and take higher point costs but have a pleasurable experience.

In the end, I am not after a super-competitive codex. I can go to tournaments without one. I am confident in my skills as a wargamer. What I am looking for in a codex is flavour and interesting bits. However, due to the extreme streamlining in 7ed, we are losing it more and more.

I am clinging to DA in desperation, hoping against hope that the imminent update will not be an update at all, but just a campaign and that they do not take out the flavour bits.

 

But in the end, this is the price that must be paid to bring everyone back in line. After all, there is still plenty time afterwards to work in some fun bits in the future ;)

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

 

And that is precisely my problem with BA and SW. They are very functional, but bland. I rather jump through a few hoops and take higher point costs but have a pleasurable experience.

 

In the end, I am not after a super-competitive codex. I can go to tournaments without one. I am confident in my skills as a wargamer. What I am looking for in a codex is flavour and interesting bits. However, due to the extreme streamlining in 7ed, we are losing it more and more.

 

 

What flavour, in your view, was removed from the codex? It still seems quite flavourful to me -- we still have our unique units like Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Fragiosos, Librarian Dreadnaughts, and Baal Predators. The reason our Elites and Fast Attack slots are so packed is because we have a lot of options. It seems to me that the Baal Strike Force Detachment gives a fairly unique army bonus too.

 

Surely if you're willing to sacrifice being optimized (which it seems you are from your comments), you can craft a fun list with the new codex?

[Frater Cornelius]

BA have it a bit better than SW in that regard. Fragioso is indeed something unique as are DC and 'Descend of Angels' is absolutely my favourite rule.

However, Magna Grapple was something truly unique, as were ASM Troops. It made them stand out from the rest.

The new book has taken more than it has given, but that was a necessary part of streamlining, I agree.

 

But overall, I can still see good amount ot uniqueness in the BA book to be happy about. I am happy for you ;)

[Shaezus]

So you should be :)

[SnorriSnorrison]

No. It's one dimensional.

I have to agree. SW and BA are the functionally the best codices in 6ed. However, let me tell you a little story. I usually shave with a straight razor. Yes, it may take longer, requires skill and plenty of preparation, but it is very enjoyable.

Heh. Same here. It's a small world.

I somehow agree that the changes made left us a bit bland, yes - that's what it means to be in the C:SM department. I think putting Assault Veterans in the elites section is merely one example, one I find very annoying. They're kinda both fast attack and elites, but the elites section is way more crowded...it would've been very easy to just put the VAS in FA and call it a day, but no, BA are codex marines and need to do this and that and yaddayaddayadda. It's little things like this, that, in my humble opinion, make us look bland compared to what we had before. Another thing is that we lost Scout on the Baal. I mean WHAT? Why?? Absolutely no point to it, other than it got cheaper. Still, outflanking Baals were amazing, and they'll be sorely missed.

Now, don't get me wrong everyone, I really like the codex. The points reductions, relics and special rules available are nothing short of fantastic, and allows for some cool combinations. I mean, heavy flamer tacs everyone? helloooo!

On the other hand, losing ASM as troops hurt badly. We've had it since the pdf 'dex, which was released about 7 years ago, you just can't get over these things in a day or two. If it was at least 0-1 ASM per army as troops, and I'd been satisfied, but again, we're being streamlined.

Other than that, the layout of the 7th edition codizes is terrible. It looks more like an IKEA catalog without the current price tag and generally less thoughtfully put together than a summary of our units. Compare that to the old codizes where you got unit entries with the complete special rules and statlines, and I can't see how that even got through the development phase. Probably a marketing thing...

Now, another thing. I'm German and while I speak English and I very much enjoy the language, I believe mixing the two languages to create 'Denglish' (a funny term for Deutsch and English) is an absolute crime. And now, every unit name in the codex is in english, they even add an 's' for the plural, which is something you don't normally do in German. Looks soo odd. This might be a regional thing, but it's another point on the list 'why streamlining sucks'.

Haven't had a game with the new codex yet, because I'm painting up 5 units at a time to get the new list all done for a game. Still looking forward to the first game though!

Alright, rant over.

Snorri

[Emperors Immortals]

So many things I agree with, but I've no more likes to give.

 

The negative for me is losin the old Baal pred rules and not having any jump pack troops.

 

Taking the DC troop unit (raphen) is mandatory for me now, as well as I run librarians which I never did last dex.

 

As for a good dex, ive shelved my orks and DE after there bland books, im not happy with wolves either.

 

The only books I use now are CSM w/ IA13 units, Elder and BA - I'm very happy with this book.

 

 

:D

[SamaNagol]

No offence, Sama, but I don't call that a strong list.

lol 

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Snorri - I was also a bit baffled with the mixed language in the books in non-English releases, however, I made a point of only using English 40k related stuff, even if I have wait a while until my store can get some English copies over here. I learned this game in the UK and thus it seems much more natural. Hell, this game is made in the UK to begin with :D

 

As for the codex... there is still something that bothers me, though I can not pin-point it. A nagging feeling.

Is it because I am forced to take Tacs as Troops? Is it because the entire army is JP focused and thus lacks visual diversity? Is it the fact that FA slots are so bloody crowded and thus you are hard-pressed to include the stuff you like? Is it because you can not make extensive use of DoA since you need stuff on the table until T2?

I am not sure, but something prevents me being at peace with this book.