A month in, are people happy with the new Codex?

[Xenith]

 

The need to get the most competitive build out of a codex arises from being surrounded by players only interested in competitive gaming.

 

Not at all, my post was made in the context of mostly playing friends who I've known for thirty odd years. It's a nice friendly social enviroment, with beer and pizza.

 

I disagree. You dislike the codex because your gaming environment is so competitive that you feel you can only use bikes and DC. Beer and Pretzels are not mutually exclusive with competitiveness.

 

Sounds like your meta has sucked the fun out of the game and needs to bring in a rule where you cant use the same list twice. You may argue that they have fun being super competitive. Yes, true, but they will have more fun by using less optimal units and remaining as competitive.

 

As for the AV 13 wall being made redundant with the army...well, the Baal strike force can get 3 more AV13 models on the table than the old codex ever could (HQ dreads amd the extra elite slot).

[toaae]

Xenith, that last part isn't true. The old dex could have 9 AV13 vehicles in one FOC. The new dex can also have 9.

 

I feel as though you forgot regular press for the old dex.

[knife&fork]

3 dreads from elites, 3 Baals from FA, 3 preds/vindicators from HS and if you'd like 2 land raiders in the Troops slot. Only doable in a 2k+ list though. 

[Xenith]

Xenith, that last part isn't true. The old dex could have 9 AV13 vehicles in one FOC. The new dex can also have 9.

 

I feel as though you forgot regular press for the old dex.

 

You're right, I totally forgot that baals moved to FA.

 

What the new dex does worse is AV14 spam. Maybe this was a way to keep a lid on extreme armies. It would be nice to still have dedicated transport raiders.

[Cronhour]

theres quite a mobility difference between 6 fast tanks with 3 dreads and 6 dreads with 3 fast tanks though. While you can technically field an av13 wall list it's probably less viable than it was, and not helped by loss of troop slot razors and land raiders.

[Jolemai]

It's a shame we don't have the option to master craft weapons given our love of the arts.

[ContemptuousAngel]

I have an effective all Death Company army, literaly the army I always wanted. So yeah, I'm happy.

[ContemptuousAngel]

 

Xenith, that last part isn't true. The old dex could have 9 AV13 vehicles in one FOC. The new dex can also have 9.

 

I feel as though you forgot regular press for the old dex.

 

You're right, I totally forgot that baals moved to FA.

 

What the new dex does worse is AV14 spam. Maybe this was a way to keep a lid on extreme armies. It would be nice to still have dedicated transport raiders.

 

If GW wanted to keep a lid on extreme armies they wouldn't have Knights, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wave Serpents, Riptides, Gorkanaughts and Morkanaughts, etc. That is definitely NOT why we don't have DT Landraiders any more. They wanted to balance BA with MEQ. I don't think Codex Astartes have DT landraiders anymore either, even Black Templars (WHICH SUCKS BECAUSE golly gee GW???). Anyway, yeah, it's a pain, but I've found my storm ravens to be far more effective on the field than landraiders, except in my last game where my Redeemer rocked face and didn't die the entire game.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

So, they released the codex for the revenue and then they're going to merge us in the next C:SM update?

Hm. Personally, I don't think so, it will limit their future codex releases. Also, DA would be merged as well, and the codex "astartes"(new C:SM) would hit probably around double the price than it is now. Given what they'll apparently do to WHFB, I don't think they can afford to disgruntle even more of their customers by raising the prices on codizes only because they've got "everything you need to build any SM army" in there.

 

Snorri

 

Edit: Spelling.

[JamesI]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

no. I think this is just a dsign change away from some of Ward's ideas ( in the case of land raiders as dedicated for all or baals as fast) and a design idea to simplify troops. I consider it highly unlikely we merge into codex space marines.

[GrunTeufel]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

When is that gonna happen? I don't see another BA codex coming up anytime soon. I don't think GW thinks that far ahead. 

[Emperors Immortals]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

I think rather that this is just another move to simplify the game, its good for friend,lies and builds a frame for comps.

 

A mate of mine toldmebefore 7th landed that the design would promote friendly games at the expense of competitive, well he also told me GW want to sponsor comp events within the next 5 years, and this just backs it up. He also said WhiteScars would take over the lists, so just a little salt required I guess.

[knife&fork]

With the way GW are cranking out supplements, campaign boxes, data slates, formations and special detachments in so many different formats they aren't actually streamlining anything. Quite the opposite. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

So, they released the codex for the revenue and then they're going to merge us in the next C:SM update?

 

Makes sense, in a twisted, gamesworshop-y kind of way: charge BA players for their new codex, and hit them up again for more money in a year or two when their faction gets rolled into the SM dex.

Hm. Personally, I don't think so, it will limit their future codex releases.

 

They already have so many damn books to update, I'm sure the studio wouldn't be too unhappy about having one less to do.

 

Also, DA would be merged as well, and the codex "astartes"(new C:SM) would hit probably around double the price than it is now.

 

I don't think DA could be rolled into SM very well at this point. Before their latest book, it would have been easy-peasy. Now that they have Black Knights, Darkshrouds, Nephilims and Deathwing Knights, its a different ballgame.

 

Given what they'll apparently do to WHFB, I don't think they can afford to disgruntle even more of their customers by raising the prices on codizes only because they've got "everything you need to build any SM army" in there.

 

GW has shown a casual disregard for the satifsaction of its playerbase, so I'm not sure how much weight I'd give that argument.

 

Comments in red.

 

 

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

no. I think this is just a dsign change away from some of Ward's ideas ( in the case of land raiders as dedicated for all or baals as fast) and a design idea to simplify troops.

 

I wasn't surprised that ASM went back to FA, but the changes to Raiders and Baals totally caught me by surprise.

 

I'd actually that's more evidence of a possible merge down the line rather than evidence against such a move.

 

 

 

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

When is that gonna happen? I don't see another BA codex coming up anytime soon. I don't think GW thinks that far ahead. 

 

 

Well that's what I'm saying: we might not see another BA-only dex at all further down the line.

[simison]

I finally got to play a game this week with the new codex. Never before have I had to struggle to come up with the number of bodies I needed for a 2k list. While I did not win that game, I was pleased by my BA's performance and am excited to play more games without even considering allies.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

First game yesterday as well against Dark Eldar. I was very pleased that although I lost the game and didn't have much left on the field by turn five, neither did my opponent.

 

Fave moment: Having a 1 wound Dante charge with a Sanguinary Priest and a single vanguard veteran and take out a fully healthy Drazar with his last remaining succubus. End of that fight was that only the succubus survived lol

 

I found the blank DC a little underwhelming. Might consider power weapons in them.

 

LOVED the Angels Wrath intervention force. They arrived turn 2 paired up with a drop pod fragioso. That shifted things in my favor and forced him to consolidate his forces in one corner of the field which kept me in the fight as if those raiders were allowed to fly around the field I would not have been able to cope with them.

 

Sanguinary Priests are great buff units, but having used them in assault squads, I felt they were squishy...

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

All I can say is I've been having tons of fun with the new book so far.  Tonight I played a 2 Wraithknight, 2 wave-serpent Eldar list in a Cities of Death game and the Blood Angels were awesome.

 

I had a 10man Sanguinary Guard with Dante and jump-Priest, a 10man DC with Corbulo in the StormRaven, ...a Furioso also in the SR, 2 tactical squads in pods and a 5man assault with 2 meltas.  I was expecting to get tabled but the game was a bloody mess and great fun.

[shandwen]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

From all the BA specific kits that were just released, there is no way that there is a plan to merge them.  BT's have had no new anything for years.  That's why they got rolled.  I think the slot readjustment was merely that, a readjustment.  Making the units between codexs fill the same roll doesn't really mean anything.

 

On a related note, the mini-dexes don't require updates, they just disappear.  That's why the system is being streamlined from GW's view.

[Ishagu]

No way they would ever merge the Blood Angels or Dark Angels with the vanilla book. Far too many unique units and models!

[Xenith]

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

No. Consider the alternative detachment options.

 

If Baal's remained in fast attack, Flesh Tearers could take 7.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

So, they released the codex for the revenue and then they're going to merge us in the next C:SM update?

 

Makes sense, in a twisted, gamesworshop-y kind of way: charge BA players for their new codex, and hit them up again for more money in a year or two when their faction gets rolled into the SM dex.

Hm. Personally, I don't think so, it will limit their future codex releases.

 

They already have so many damn books to update, I'm sure the studio wouldn't be too unhappy about having one less to do.

 

Also, DA would be merged as well, and the codex "astartes"(new C:SM) would hit probably around double the price than it is now.

 

I don't think DA could be rolled into SM very well at this point. Before their latest book, it would have been easy-peasy. Now that they have Black Knights, Darkshrouds, Nephilims and Deathwing Knights, its a different ballgame.

 

Given what they'll apparently do to WHFB, I don't think they can afford to disgruntle even more of their customers by raising the prices on codizes only because they've got "everything you need to build any SM army" in there.

 

GW has shown a casual disregard for the satifsaction of its playerbase, so I'm not sure how much weight I'd give that argument.

 

Comments in red.

 

 

 

Answers in numerical order:

 

1. You see, that's the only reason why I'd think that idea of yours would make a little bit of sense, because GW have become impudent regarding their pricing policy, and their way of "designing" armies that need more and more models.

 

2. More books means more work, yes, but that's what their design team is there for, after all. It means more codizes, more miniatures and eventually more profit to be made.

 

3. Oh yes they could, no problem at all. Actually, we have more unique units than DA at this point. Just add a Deathwing/Ravenwing detachment/formation and you're good to go. Who cares about players that have build their armies around one specific wing anyway? GW sure doesn't.

 

4. While I'd agree on that in general, they've also listened to their playerbase(I know it sounds crazy!). So many of the things we, on this forum, wrote down as a wishlist for an upcoming Blood Angels codex have become true, and even some things we'd thought were lost forever(+1 init on the charge for example) are in that book. If that's not a strong hint or even proof that GW has it's employees stalk forums like this to get ideas from the playerbase, then I don't know what could be. I'm not saying that they'll fulfil our every wish, but I don't believe this to be coincidence either.

 

 

 

Snorri

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

From all the BA specific kits that were just released, there is no way that there is a plan to merge them. 

 

They got Assault Termies, a Sang Priest and a Libby, all of which are in the SM dex or could be used as something in the Marine dex (Sang Priest = Apothecary).

 

No way they would ever merge the Blood Angels or Dark Angels with the vanilla book. Far too many unique units and models!

 

I agree for Dark Angels, but the only thing that would require a unique Unit Entry for BA to be rolled in is Death Company: Sang Guard would just be Honour Guard with Jump Packs, Furiosos get rolled in with Ironclads, Sang Priests just become normal Apothecaries (or SM get their own super-apothecary) and Baals get rolled into the Pred entry.

 

 

Anybody think they might be preparing to merge BA with the SM dex, and that's why Baals, Raiders and ASM are back in their "normal" slots?

 

No. Consider the alternative detachment options.

 

If Baal's remained in fast attack, Flesh Tearers could take 7.

 

 

So? Even if that were somehow broken (it's really not), that hasn't stopped GW in the past.

 

 

2. More books means more work, yes, but that's what their design team is there for, after all. It means more codizes, more miniatures and eventually more profit to be made.

 

Well that's true in theory, but look at what happened this time around: not a single new unit in the Codex. We got new models but they are just variants on existing units.

 

3. Oh yes they could, no problem at all. Actually, we have more unique units than DA at this point. Just add a Deathwing/Ravenwing detachment/formation and you're good to go. Who cares about players that have build their armies around one specific wing anyway? GW sure doesn't.

 

As I highlighted above, all the BA-specific units can easily be rolled into the similar SM units, but for DA? Their Flyers are too different to become either Storm Talons or Storm Ravens, their bikers are too different to be bike command squads or normal bike squads, their Darkshrouds are too different from normal speeders or storms to be rolled in with them. The only unit you could sorta roll in are the Terminators (DWK just become assault termies with (weird-looking) thunderhammers).

 

4. While I'd agree on that in general, they've also listened to their playerbase(I know it sounds crazy!). So many of the things we, on this forum, wrote down as a wishlist for an upcoming Blood Angels codex have become true, and even some things we'd thought were lost forever(+1 init on the charge for example) are in that book. If that's not a strong hint or even proof that GW has it's employees stalk forums like this to get ideas from the playerbase, then I don't know what could be. I'm not saying that they'll fulfil our every wish, but I don't believe this to be coincidence either.

 

I'm skeptical. A lot of the changes are things that even a monkey could have figured out (CD JP costs, Sang Guard cost).

 

Comments in red.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

From all the BA specific kits that were just released, there is no way that there is a plan to merge them. 

 

They got Assault Termies, a Sang Priest and a Libby, all of which are in the SM dex or could be used as something in the Marine dex (Sang Priest = Apothecary).

 

None of these would have sold well if it wasn't for the codex. That's why you don't see Imperial Fist terminator boxes with all the bling that we get. From a business point of view, you'd want people to buy Blood Angel specific squads, but then why take away everything that was unique about them and shove it into C:SM? This would be counterproductive. Take away the stand-alone codex and you take away the playerbase's motivation to buy specific models,  they'll be just for the looks.

 

No way they would ever merge the Blood Angels or Dark Angels with the vanilla book. Far too many unique units and models!

 

I agree for Dark Angels, but the only thing that would require a unique Unit Entry for BA to be rolled in is Death Company: Sang Guard would just be Honour Guard with Jump Packs, Furiosos get rolled in with Ironclads, Sang Priests just become normal Apothecaries (or SM get their own super-apothecary) and Baals get rolled into the Pred entry.

 

Actually, I'd love our furiosos to be like Ironclads if we kept the frag cannon. Increased AV and some of the options sound pretty good. Also, a seismic hammer allows for some nice conversions.

 

 

2. More books means more work, yes, but that's what their design team is there for, after all. It means more codizes, more miniatures and eventually more profit to be made.

 

Well that's true in theory, but look at what happened this time around: not a single new unit in the Codex. We got new models but they are just variants on existing units.

 

I pointed that out above, but the point is: without a codex, GW would have little reason to release any chapter-specific models/kits. I don't think they'll stomp everything into the ground once they sold 'enough' of the new kits. I mean without a proper codex, why would I invest in unreasonably priced miniatures that will play just like everyone else's?

 

3. Oh yes they could, no problem at all. Actually, we have more unique units than DA at this point. Just add a Deathwing/Ravenwing detachment/formation and you're good to go. Who cares about players that have build their armies around one specific wing anyway? GW sure doesn't.

 

As I highlighted above, all the BA-specific units can easily be rolled into the similar SM units, but for DA? Their Flyers are too different to become either Storm Talons or Storm Ravens, their bikers are too different to be bike command squads or normal bike squads, their Darkshrouds are too different from normal speeders or storms to be rolled in with them. The only unit you could sorta roll in are the Terminators (DWK just become assault termies with (weird-looking) thunderhammers).

 

I agree with you on the speeders and the flyers - but they could be worked in, I think. Just allowing them in a DW/RW detachment would do, actually. Even opening them up to the C:SM players wouldn't be too farfetched. Change fluff where needed, annoy everyone, boost sales. Boom. In the end, both BA and DA could be worked in, I just don't think it will happen.

 

4. While I'd agree on that in general, they've also listened to their playerbase(I know it sounds crazy!). So many of the things we, on this forum, wrote down as a wishlist for an upcoming Blood Angels codex have become true, and even some things we'd thought were lost forever(+1 init on the charge for example) are in that book. If that's not a strong hint or even proof that GW has it's employees stalk forums like this to get ideas from the playerbase, then I don't know what could be. I'm not saying that they'll fulfil our every wish, but I don't believe this to be coincidence either.

 

I'm skeptical. A lot of the changes are things that even a monkey could have figured out (CD JP costs, Sang Guard cost).

 

Ah, but let's not forget the other changes: Sanguinary High Priests as HQ(like back in 3rd edition), Dante's immense buff(axe+EW), psychic discipline(they gave that to the other codizes too, alright) and heavy flamers on tacticals! Effectively we have one more generic HQ(regarding MoF and techmarines as the same thing...) and beefed up troops - and I can remember reading most of this in various wish-listing threads throughout the last year and before.

 

Comments in red.

 

 

 

Comments in green. I've taken the liberty to add another opinion on the discussion between you and shandwen.

 

 

 

Snorri

[Shaezus]

I LOVE this new dex!

 

Codex creep has been addressed and some things are not as strong as they were, as expected. But we have been given much of what we cried out for and their have been some unexpected positives too. What makes our dex truly respectable is that we can now be competitive AND be fun, all without any broken units or 'auto-picks'. Think I've said it before but there is a synergy in this dex - a certain completeness - which makes BA a worthwile force.

 

It's just up to each player if they have the patience to master them or not.