Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Hey guys, I'm trying to get my Crimson Slaughter going for a game this week. I'm just completely undecided on the direction of the army dataslate wise. So first off, aside from the batrep I did and the 2 games I played... has -anyone- else tied the Helguard formation? Secondly, I admittedly quickly wrote off the Khârn Butcherhorde formation, but has anyone played that formation? Thirdly, I've used the Helbrute formation the most. I may have to proxy one, as I never got to magnetizing stuff and don't have 3 completely assembled yet but that is the way I'm leaning (the 3 Helbrute deep strike formation). Final option is no formation at all. Just go back to vanilla codex. What would you guys say is the best option right now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I've honestly always been well served by the Helcult. Dont depend on anything in it to kill stuff, but its a massive annoyance and not an expensive one. Plasma/Fist Dread 2 x 10 Fearless cultists. Walk them towards whatever objective is close, let the dread drop a few blasts on something hopefully screened by one of the units, and watch most of my opponents waste AT on a few cultists for a few turns while the heavy hitters (often Great Daemons/Belakor/Juggerlord or Daemon Princes) go about ruining someones day. I guess I look for things that are expendable but still give you something, likely from my time playing 5th Ed Dark Eldar. That said, I still like Belakor as well as a little toolkit guy. I've not tried the larger formations, I'm just not interested in investing into a list with that amount of CSM, preferring to go Daemon/CSM/Helcult, which I had a lot of success with including a few tournament wins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3914664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I've not got the miniatures for the Helguard formation, nor any local opponents who don't have some form of Fearless to make it worth trying. What I have used successfully is the Helcult, which provided an effective screen for the Hrlbrute and the Mayhem Pack which used multi meltas, plasma cannons and heavy flamers to ruin the day of a couple of Rhinos and the assault squads inside Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3914740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I have yet to play a game in this year so I had not the chance to test either the Kranon's or Khârn's formations but I plan to do it as soon as I can. On the other hand I have quite some experience with the Mayhem and Helcult formations. Of the two I favor the Mayhem pack since it is very useful for my army setup, which is mostly a very aggressive list. My observations. Mayhem Pack. A great distraction, a great deal of pain and a great deal of pressure if played well. It does not win you battles, it does not conquer worlds but it helps you get there. I usually Deep Strike them in the middle of the field so the Helbrutes have some space to move around as well as this allows me to create a "contesting zone" which means that if you want to come at me you have to move through my brutes. I have used the pack also very aggressively by deploying in the enemy zone though this often costs me a Helbrute since in my club we play on densely populated board with lots of edifices, ruins, small walls, in short a lot of trouble. Still irrelevant which army you face, three Helbrutes in your deployment zone hurts, or if nothing else, distracts. I have seen them eat also quite a lot of firepower, despite being a basic walker. In short, I love the formation and it is an autoinclude. I have not played the Murderpack since I lack the required number of dreadnoughts, but I have played the Helcult formation. Now if you max the squads you have a ton of Fearless cultists for cheap, with the Helbrute in there just as an added bonus. If I know that I go against Tyranids I tend to use the Helcult as a stopgap, sacrificial unit, to tie the melee critters as long as I can in combat. If I go against other armies then the Helcult is useful too. Depends on the mission but my Helcult usually falls in one of the following roles: - clean-up unit (clear objectives, tie in combat mauled units, inflict wounds with autoguns) - stopgap unit (hold an enemy HQ in melee for as long as it is practicable, keep big beasts tied in combat... well you get the idea) - breacher unit (find a breach in the enemy deployment, show him the Helcult up his throat) - rearguard unit (keep the Cultists and the Helbrute behind to contest with any deep striking/ambush units or to support your gunline) And despite not being a OS unit it is always good to pop the Helcult on an objective and keep it there. Here a ranged Helbrute is worth its price in gold. With the cultist cover I have seen such a bunker last for three turns and scoring me the objective as the game ended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3914857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm literally one dread off of the Murderpack, but I'm stuck with 3 DV brutes. I plan to at least get the mms haphazardly converted into auto cannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3914885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I did really enjoy the Helguard but I think I'm going to try the 3 Helbrute formation and just base a normal list around it. I've used Helcult and it is pretty fun... just lacking ObSec but still fun and usable. I may have to proxy one dread for the game but I might try the 3 pack just to see what it's like spamming the models. I could also use that formation WITH Helguard. I did enjoy lowering ballistic skill in that game. However even at 1850 pts, you can kiss ObSec goodbye for the most part. ;) I'll have to think about it some more but game time is tonight, so we'll see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 So is hellcult basically fearless while the dread is alive and zealot when he dies? Also as long as 2 cultist is in front of him he gains a 3+ cover Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yeah, but I've found that the Cover isnt really what matters. Its cheap as hell fodder, that doesnt run, that is still a scoring body. ObSec is all well and good, but I've never found it critical. Our dread isnt good enough to have the 3+ be all that, its really just a super cheap troop (or 2) that opponents need to waste time shooting. Plop them in cover and laugh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I am actually considering an 1850 list with two of the Helbrute formations on top of my combined arms army.... could actually work. I do hate giving up ObSec for Maelstrom though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Consider the following, to make per standard two Cultists squads Fearless you need two Fearless Characters. Straight base this is 2x 65 points of Chaos Lord + the cost of the Cultists. Now if you use the Helcult the tax is just 100 points for a stock Helbrute which not only makes TWO squads Fearless but they also gains Zealot when the Helbrute dies, so wisdom says that it is an aggressive formation. Its basic use is to advance it across the board, tank the wounds with the Helbrute and use the Cultist cover when anti-armor weapons hit, hope that the Helbrute dies in a turn or two and when you are in melee range you capitalize on the Zealot USR. That is the theory behind the formation. In truth this is just one way to play it and we all know how useful is to have two blobs of Fearless Cultists, regardless of ones army build. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 I agree. The funny thing is my Chaos usually has the most trouble with shooting. Typically I've been playing the Helcult with a lascannon dread, behind the advancing blobs. What I've been finding is people get really concerned about the twin linked las and it bugs them enough that they pay a little too much attention to it than is warranted (imo) and if I'm lucky, I pass a few of those cover saves in a row and next thing you know they've 'wasted' a few turns of firing on it. But I am considering a VERY aggressive list. One of the helcult blobs will have the better gun upgrades for 24" shooting, but both will be advancing like mad. As mentioned I am also including the 3 helbrute formation with a vanilla helbrute, and 2 plasma cannon helbrutes. So all in all, I'll have 4 helbrutes, fearless mini-blobs, and Kranon in a landraider with Draznicht's ravagers. I always fit at least one Maulerfiend in there, and a rhino (possessed today!) and that's a LOT of AV 12 on the table. I will play it very aggressive and see what happens! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Remember one of the most ancient secrets of Warhammer. It matters not how many points of units your unit destroys in a turn. What really matters is how many points of units your unit ties in a turn, be it in melee, shooting or movement blocking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yeah do let us know. I havent had much luck unless my HQ(s) bring a lot of hurt, and are manuverable on their own. Land Raiders have just never worked for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yeah do let us know. I havent had much luck unless my HQ(s) bring a lot of hurt, and are manuverable on their own. Land Raiders have just never worked for me. One of the best things that happened to me was I rolled up on the Crimson Slaughter Warlord Traits and got Shrouded. The Lord was in a landraider conferring that to the vehicle and it was really nice. Eventually it gave way. The reason I'm using the LR is because of the assault ramp obviously but also to shelter some of the AV12. My test list is going to have a pretty hefty size of fearless/zealot cultists. So my opponent will have to decide between shooting at all that infantry OR 4 Helbrutes (in total) OR the Landraider.... OR the single Maulerfiend I squeaked into the list. Obviously I will be suffering in the shooting department if I face something like Nids.... or Orks, which can assault really well. But I'm going to take my chances. Again Maelstrom is a great equalizer of some of this. One thing the Helguard formation incidentally taught me is how good the Lord (Kranon in my case) is with the Preferred enemy Draznicht chosen. I know that Landraider will be a high priority. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceytrixx Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm definitely considering the mayhem pack and the helcult when I expand to 2500 for some tournaments up here. Sure I'll still probably get smashed by lords of war/wraithknight spam/Riptide spam but I get use cultists as a near shield so that's a win Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Typhus works too for that reason however in my caae I've moved on from my deathguard and am trying very hard to stay true to my crimson slaughter. It hasn't been easy. A lot of armies just can't contend with today's most abusive combos so I just ignore it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Typhus works too for that reason however in my caae I've moved on from my deathguard and am trying very hard to stay true to my crimson slaughter. It hasn't been easy. A lot of armies just can't contend with today's most abusive combos so I just ignore it. This is why I've just painted a Nurgle Terminator Lord to use as a "counts as" Typhus (it's in my WIP thread) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceytrixx Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Typhus works too for that reason however in my caae I've moved on from my deathguard and am trying very hard to stay true to my crimson slaughter. It hasn't been easy. A lot of armies just can't contend with today's most abusive combos so I just ignore it. Yeah but typhus is all smelly and disgusting and not beautiful and perfect like Slaanesh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301736-the-chaos-formations-dataslates-brainstorming/#findComment-3915613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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