Big Heresy Game, IF against Death Guard

[Phoenix Darkus]

1st time posting on this site, love that you guys have a dedicated HH section!

 

My friend and I are planning on playing a large scale heresy game as it lends itself well to the bigger size while retaining good structure (as opposed to Apoc which easily gets out of hand), we've agreed on 1 Age of Darkness detachment + 1 extra Lord of War to allow for a primarch and a super-heavy. We're both using our 40k models but testing out 30k rules. I play IF legion (I have a homebrew chapter using a combo of IF and BT fluff, so it fits well) and he's gonna play Death Guard (he normally plays Plague Marines and Nurrgle Daemons).

 

Here's the list I came up with:

 

PRIMARCH:

 

Rogal Dorn, Pride of the Legion, 385

 

HEADQUARTERS:

 

Sigismund, 230

Chaplain Centurion, AA, refractor field (5++), MBs, solarite power gauntlet, 135

Primus Medicae Centurion, TDA, solarite power gauntlet, teleportation transponder, 140

 

TROOPS:

 

10 Tacticals, extra CCW, srgt with AA, PF, MBs, nuncio-vox, rhino with TL bolter, 250

10 Terminators, teleportation transponder, 2 PS, 5 CF, 3 PF, 2 LLiastus Assault Cannons, grenade harness, 445

6 Terminators, all TH/SS, 355

10 Veteran Tacticals, srgt with AA, combi-melta, PF, nuncio-vox, 2 HBs with suspensor web, all MBs, rhino with TL bolter, 350

10 Veteran Tacticals, srgt with AA, combi-melta, PF, nuncio-vox, 2 MGs, all MBs, rhino with TL bolter, 340

8 Templar Brethren, all combat shields, all MBs, champ with solarite power gauntlet, 2 plasma pistols, LR with MM, armoured ceramite, dozer blade, extra armour, auxiliary drive, 670

 

ELITES:

 

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought, dual Kheres Assault Cannons, Havoc Launcher, 195

Legion Mortis Dreadnought, dual TL autocannons, 135

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

2 Land Speeders in a squadron, MMs, 120

Legion Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, TL lascannons, TL MM, armoured ceramite, extra armour, 295

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

5 legion heavy support, 4 LCs, srgt with AA, nuncio-vox and CCW, 225

Legion Vindicator, dozer blade, PoTMS, TL bolter, 155

 

SUPER-HEAVY:

 

Legion Fellblade, MM, SM crew, armoured ceramite, 585

 

TOTAL: 5000

 

General thoughts and tactics:

Dorn will join the TH termies in the Storm Eagle, this will provide a way to get him forward quickly where he can chop wood; this unit also has the best chances of surviving a crash. Alternatively, if the enemy is gonna be aggressive I can keep them on foot around key units for safety/deterrent.

Sigismund + Templars + Chaplain will hop in the LR and rush forward, supported by all the rhino units; I'm hoping the Fellblade, heavy support squad and land speeders will have opened up the enemy transports so that all my BS5 bolters and assault units will have bodies to target.

The 10-man terminator squad will deep-strike in with the Primus Medicae (for extra resilience) and should be able to land safely thanks to the nuncio-voxes sprinkled everywhere.

The dreads will be on AA duties, which may prove difficult since the Death Guard might show up with 3 Storm Eagles, but this is the best I can do with the models I have.

Some units I'm nearly sure to face: Mortarion, a Legion Falchion, most likely triple vindicator for the enemy heavies and lots of Veteran Tacticals.

 

I'm looking for tips on facing Death Guard and Mortarion and any feedback on the list itself; thanks.

[Dono1979]

Great to see some larger games getting underway, you are right, 30K lends itself to big points in a fantastic way. At such a points level it is going to be easier to throw some suggestions/points at you rather than a well structured commentary.

 

 - Rogal Dorn is one of the middle Tier Primarchs, he is not a combat beast like some of the others. His strengths lie in his buffs to his army, I would be taking some fortifications in the list to benefit from those buffs coupled with the Imperial Fists trait of becoming Stubborn.

 

 - You lack (imo) feet on the ground for the 5K level, you may want to consider dropping one of the Tactical out of their rhino, dropping the rhino and scavanging points from elsewhere to bolster them up to a 20 man squad to be a fortification garrison unit less the CCW to free up some points. If you can find additional points you have an elite slot free and you could bring in an apothecary with an Augury scanner to go with the 20 man blob with makes them more resilient (5+fnp) and also gives them the 18" anti deep strike bubble with their bolters.

 

- The Templar Brethren dont need so many Combat shields. In all likelihood they will not be issuing challanges, that will be Sigismunds job, and if you have come across a unit full of AP2 weaponary you are most likely facing Power Fists or Axes, both of which strike last and will be dead before they get to swing, UNLESS they are terminators in which case you should have engaged them with Brethren and even with Combat shields you will be dead (except for sigi). Combat Shields on Templar Brethren squad should be limited to Serg and maybe two more, but when you have two beefy HQ in there as well, you dont need them, points can be spent better elsewhere (see above or below), possibly dont even want the Plasma Pistols, you WANT to get into combat, you will shred things, plasma pistols have a tendancy to lower chances of getting into combat for a LOT of points.

 

- I would consider putting storm shields on your other terminator squad, even three or four will make a very solid defensive line, IF can get some of the best invuln saves, make use of them.

 

- Thunder Hammers..... my pet hate. They are so situational that they are not even worth looking at imho. They are only useful against multi wound models with either Eternal Warrior or T5+, both are very rare in 30K. Against Vehicles they are no better than power fists. I would be running them as a combination of Chainfists and Lightning claws so that they can take on 3+, 2+ and high armour vehicles equally well.

 

- You already have a chunk of Melta (mainly Melta Bombs which are good!), normally at this point level people start pulling out the Armoured Ceramite again, nerfing most ranged melta, where available, on relentless units, I would swap the Melta weapons for Graviton. The Landspeeders lend themselves VERY well to Grav platforms. This will allow you to make all but guaranteed HP hits on some of the larger vehicles like Super Heavies where you simply need to strip HP rather than stun lock them. Having them on Lanspeeders give you the flexibility to be most places on the field and still land the shot on that tank with just one or two HP left. And with armies this size, it is bound to get crowded which gives you the chance to hit multiple vehicles with the blasts.

 

 

In summary I think this is a reasonably good list, though a little elitist which is natural considering Pride of the Legion. It will go well against balanced armour to heavy armour lists, but will struggle against Infantry heavy or flyers. You simply dont have the firepower or volume to take on infantry heavy and you lack the anti air to knock out many flyers (as you have acknowledged). 

 

Hope that helps a little?

Slipstream might be along to make some comments as well, he normally has some great advise with Imperial Fists, my experience lies more in large games (I run and play monthly Apocalypse games).

[Slips]

Yeah, I mean, at 5k points you have a shortage of boots which will hurt you especially if your going up against Pie-Plate Launchers.

TBH, Pride of the Legion isn't all that needed since Dorn makes Terminators troops and you aren't using all your Elites Slots. Though, later on with what I'll suggest, you'll probably, at most, have one slot free.

So to start with, Tactical Blobs with Apothecaries. If you follow Dono's above suggestions, especially that one about fortifications, having 20 man Tac Blobs with FNP, Stubborn and a Cover Save will make for great anvil unit.

2 blobs with apothecary with the usual wargear (artificer armor, Pfist or Axe&MB and Vexilla) will run you ~310 points each. Thats double to quadruple (rapid fire fury of the legion) of a Tactical Veteran Squad.

In General, especially for large games unless you have prior knowledge, I wouldn't run Melta Guns or nearly any ranged melta at all since their Melta rule will almost always get negated by Armored Ceramite and thats usually why you bring them. Still, they could be useful especially in Rhino-Rush, Dreadhead or light vehicle lists since they usually don't have access to it.

Sigismund + Chaplain + Templar is very much overkill. Legion rules already let Sigismund Re-roll to hit and to wound in a Challenge as well as giving +1 Initiative on the Charge. They'll be PLENTY killy-choppy as is. I have a personal bias with Primus Medicae but giving one to the Templar + Sigismund squad, I think, would be much more beneficial in the long run.

Terminator Squads. TH/SS is a great unit in 40k because the only other alternative is 2LC. BUT WE HAVE OPTIONS. So make use of them. You aren't going to come up against many Multi-Wound, EW Characters or MC in 30k; the only ones being able to get them reliably for rather cheap being the Salamanders. Other contenders are the SoH with their Relic Cataphractii suit and us Imperial Fists with the Melta-Cloak-Thing.

So, I'd go with 5 TH/SS Terminators with 2-3 Special weapons since Power Weapons are included in the base Terminator Cost. I'd say 1 CF, 1 Pfist/TH. Use Cataphractii to keep them even cheaper since they can take Storm Shields for 5pts cheaper than Tartaros/Indomitus.

For the 10 man Squad since you're teleporting them in (it seems) I wouldn't spam so many Chain Fists, 2-3 is overkill enough, imo. Having 8 Fist weapons in a Terminator Squad, while good, really jacks up their price when you could just have them use Power Axes or Power Mauls since, as previously stated, you aren't bound to meed many Multi-wound Characters or MC's with EW or T5+ Baring Primarchs or Admech Stuff and in the case of Primarchs they'll usually mince you before you get the chance to strike and Initiative 1. Grenade Harness being One-use diminishes its value in my eyes :\

In the Above squad, you could have 1-2 Terminators with Dual Lightning Claws to help with CC Killyness so that they don't get Tarpitted.

For HQ Terminators you might want to consider slapping a Storm Shield on them too; mostly as a precaution.

At 5k points, 2 Speeders will probably evaporate before they ever get the chance to do anything due to how fragile they are and how much firepower can be pumped into them rather quickly/easily. I mean, they aren't a bad choice, just too squishy. I'd consider, at least, that maybe a Rapier Battery with Graviton Cannons (1-3 per slot) in cover might do better since they can drop 3 Haywire Pieplates on stuff; though Speeders with Grav could do just as well. Beware Sicarians if you decide to keep them.

I'd personally replace the Storm Eagle and the Heavy Support Squad with 4 Lascannons with a Spartan since its:

A: Tougher; Av14 all round, Flare Shields and Armored Ceramite + 5HP makes for a very tough nut. Beware Haywire.

B: It comes stock with 4 TLLC Shots. Already better than your Heavy Support Squad.

C: 25 Transport Capacity. It can Carry 10 Terminators + Dorn no problem.

Vindicator, I'm iffy on. You have a Fellblade, after all. A Sicarian (or two) might do you better with its volume of fire, ignoring jink and the fact that its a Fast Tank. Or a Fire Raptor. You said your DG Opponent might bring 3 Storm Eagles. Out Sky-Dakkaing them might be a wise choice. Especially since it can shoot at 4 different targets. It can also deepstrike...

Oh and if you happen to just have a Thunderhawk Lying around, ever consider taking Aetos Dios as a Dedicated Transport for Dorn? It has a Turbolaser and Void Shield ~~~!

In conclusion, as a base skeleton to your list I'd think about having something like:

LoW:

Papa Dorn

-Aetos Dios dedicated transport; only take if you have 600 points spare and a thunderhawk. Remember, for all intents and purposes its a thunderhawk so it has a transport capacity of 30 and they don't all have to be the same squad, iirc.

Fellblade (I like the Glaive Better due to VOLKITE Carronade but, oh well )

HQ:
Big Bro Siggy

Primus Medicae (for the Templar)

Primus Medicae (for the Terminators)

Troops:

20man Tac Blob

20man Tac Blob (if you stick with the RoW, this squad can be subbed by a Legion Tac Vet Squad)

10 Terminators

5 Terminators with 5 Storm Shields (depending on points, I'd probably add more un-shielded terminators to the squad)

8 Templar

Elites:

Apothecaries x2 (or 1 per tac blob)

Contemptor-Mortis (Depending on table size and points, I'd go with Auto-Cannons/Lascannons due to their 48" range)

Contemptor-Morits

Grav-Rapiers or Legion Tac Vets.

Fast Attack:

I'm meh on anything in this slot that isn't the One-Trick-Pony Seeker Squad, Jetbikes or Mass Storm Eagles for AirCav (on top of the ones taken as Dedi. Transports in Angels Wrath).

Heavy Support:

Spartan Assault Carrier. May or may not take a slot if used as a Dedicated Transport or not.

Sicarian x2 or Fire Raptor

Fortifications:

Whatever you want

I did not tally up any points while writing this down mostly due to 13h jetlagg so you'll have to forgive me. But I think this general idea of a list is a bit more well-rounded but not too far removed for what you were initially going for.

I'd suggest playing around with lists incorporating elements from our suggestions and your original list and seeing how they could mesh together.

Also, for all I know, everything in this GIANT wall of text could be irrelevant since, in my jetlagg induced haze, I may have missed something or whatever

[Phoenix Darkus]

Thanks so much for the detailed feedback!

 

All great info and it helps me get a better insight on the games of HH.

 

A lot of the reason this list is like that is because I'm using my 40k models and trying to minimize "counts as" for the sake of ease to track (specially in bigger games)

 

I'm definitely thinking of including an aegis line with comms relay to help with reserves, I could stick a 20-man blob + Apoc there as a back line anchor.

 

While I completely understand the line of thought on the termies about mixing in weapons and axes and stuff, I'm using my normal models with PF/SB and TH/SS... I have a termie command squad fully magnetized so I can have a couple of models with different options but that's about it.

 

I'll also try to fit in the Sicaran, but without the Legacy of Sarosh, it's gonna be more of a backup for AA than a dedicated AA unit. I was thinking of a flakk missile heavy support squad, don't know how efficient they are though.

 

The graviton weapons are interesting, they won't do much against infantry (specially death guard) but haywire is nice against vehicles. Could be good against the super heavies, I'm afraid the land speeders would get beat real quick though... Big risk, big reward I guess.

 

The rapier is nice, I was thinking of using my thunder fire cannon as the thudd gun version of it, the laser destroyer is nice with AP 1 but it seems the short range is a bit of a downfall on an artillery unit. Any feedback on that?

 

Thanks again guys, I'll revise my list.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Little out of topic, how do you fit both primarch and super-heavy into one FOC?

[Phoenix Darkus]

We've just agreed to an extra LoW, he has less models than I do so that allows him to beef up his army since he has a Shadowsword (which we will count as a Falchyon)

[Phoenix Darkus]

Here's my revised list, I've included a 16-man blob as a back-line holder with a vexila so that they don't run away, they'll hold behind the aegis line or in ruins. Also reduced the termies to 8 dudes to hang with Dorn in the Storm Eagle. Added 2 Mortis dreads with dual TLLC, the Thudd guns, Sicaran and aegis with comms relay. I've swapped the chappie for another Primus Medicae.

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion (130pts) Solarite Power Gauntlet, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon

····Consul, Primus Medicae

 

Legion Centurion (125pts) Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Solarite Power Gauntlet

····Consul, Primus Medicae

 

Sigismund (230pts)

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Tactical Squad (289pts) 16x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Take an additional Chainsword or Combat Blade

 

Legion Terminator Squad (385pts) 2x Chainfist, Iliastus Pattern Assault Cannon, 7x Legion Terminators, 2x Power Fist, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 2x Thunderhammer, 2x Vigil Pattern Storm Shield

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (365pts) 2x Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Melta Bombs

····Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Twin-Linked Bolter

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (355pts) 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Melta Bombs, 2x Melta Gun

····Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Twin-Linked Bolter

 

Templar Brethren (615pts), Melta Bombs, 7x Templar Brethren

····Chapter Champion, Combat Shield, Solarite Power Gauntlet

····Land Raider Phobos, Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade, Extra Armour, Multi-melta

 

+ Elites +

 

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought (195pts) Havoc Launcher, Two Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons

 

Legion Mortis Dreadnought (155pts) Two Twin-linked Lascannons

 

Legion Mortis Dreadnought (155pts) Two Twin-linked Lascannons

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery (60pts)

····Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Legion Storm Eagle Assault Gunship (295pts) Armoured Ceramite, Extra Armour, Twin-linked Multi-melta, Two Twin-linked Lascannons

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad (230pts) Lascannons, 4x Legion Space Marines

····Legion Sergeant, Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner, Exchange heavy weapon for a Nuncio-vox

 

Legion Sicarian Battle Tank (190pts) Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolters

 

Legion Vindicator (195pts), Armoured Ceramite, Auxiliary Drive, Dozer Blade (5pts), Extra Armour, Machine Spirit, Twin-Linked Bolter

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [VII: Imperial Fists]

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Legion Fellblade (585pts), Armoured Ceramite, Multi-melta, Space Marine Legion Crew

 

Rogal Dorn (385pts) [Primarch]

 

+ Fortification (70pts) +

 

Aegis Defense Line (70pts) Comms Relay

[Phoenix Darkus]

I think I erased the sergeants entry on my revised list: the tactical sergeant has AA, combi-weapon and power weapon, the termie sergeant has TH/SS and both vet sergeants have AA, combi-weapon, and PF.