Crimson Slaughter Test: Dual Helbrute Formation Batrep

[Prot]

Hey guys,

I have to be quick with this as I'm on my way out the door.... I discussed that I wanted to try multiple formations of the Helbrute dataslate. I have already tried the Helguard formation to mediocre results but I did find it 'okay'.

I played 1850 and my list looked like this:

Sorry for the bad pics... with my camera phone everything looks a little 'pinkish', and washed out.

Here's my basic 1850. I have the 3 Helbrute formation running alongside the Helcult formation.

I have Kranon and Draznicht's Chosen rocking a fist, 2 axes and a 2 meltaguns in the Landraider. The Helcult formation I went deep on this time taking 2 x 19 man cultists squads.

Kranon stands atop of his landraider, gloating. What could possibly go wrong with this immense show of confidence?

Basically here's my deployment:

We played Maelstrom with (unfortunately) lengthwise deployment meaning I had the long route to get to him. I did get first turn though, so this gave me a turn of moving (night fighting) before he shot at me.

The Asta Deployment: He still has 3 Scion Squads in reserve with his Inquisitor in Termie armour. As well he has two Vendetta Gunships in reserve:

Oh look. What a shock. The cowardly IG have packed themselves as deep as possible hiding their Wyverns and shooty stuff. Creed's command Chimera cowers in fear beside the Radar Tower.

- I had heavy losses even with nightfight. The Maulerfiend got uber pen'd in turn one, dying ingloriously or should I say notoriously as per usual. However I still had my Helbrutes coming in.... I lost the CSM rhino as well putting the 5 man squad on foot. Later they would lose another member. The plasmagunner would shoot, fail to hit, over heat, and blow his face off.... being squeamish, the squad decided to run like pansies to the nearest coffee shop and hope Kranon never hears about it.

- Obviously things on that side of the table were not going well. However Kranon re-rolled his warlord trait (battleforged army) and got a 6! Giving him, and his unit Shroud. So in nightfight, in the Landraider I was getting a 4++. The Astra decided to shoot other areas of my army.

- Here I am advancing just before the heavy losses in what I like to call "Wyvern Advance Pattern Delta". (IE: Keep cultists as FAR apart as possible because historically they eat Wyvern shells like candy on halloween.)

- I do alright, the Wyverns deviate on the landraider doing nothing more than making Kranon laugh... he can't wait to get to the front lines... it's his thing.

- Oh joy! The voices will be pleased. I've broken his front lines. I do have losses, but now my (proxy) Spawns are hitting up on his chimera's. Possessed are out of their rhino this turn, but unable to charge (beasts this turn too).

- I made a bad tactical error here: You can see Kranon got the itch to kick some booty. He and Draznicht got out of the Landraider... I stupidly did this about a turn too early because my shooting had been so absolutely horrid to this point, I couldn't crack a darn thing open. So rushing was dumb..... I took 3 plasma rounds to the squad on the charge! (yes, 3 sixes were rolled to hit). I lost part of Kranon's squad to that, and all for a chimera kill.

- I should have taken a better picture of it here, but my 3 Helbrutes came down in turn 3 and the plasma Helbrute takes on some Wyverns and fails. My Multimelta Helbrute rolls a 1 to shoot a lascannon sentinel squad which is really getting on my nerves (they've made about 3 of their 5+ cover saves at this point, or I just simply fail to hit them period.) The final Helbrute plasma cannon over heats and doesn't get a shot off. Grrrrrrr!!!!! Why must the gods kick me in the groin so often?

- The assault also goes very... poorly. As mentioned Kranon/Draznicht take a lot of crap to get a blown up Chimera. In the following turn they take more plasma, and a heavy flamer and the squad is nearly wiped!!! The Proxy Nurgle Spawn dudes flail away uselessly at the Chimera.... But points wise I am doing 'okay' as we are tied mid game.

- Anybody have some taco chips handy? Because here comes the zesty cheese! Two Vendetta Gunships swoop in an attempt to push me back.

- You can see I have helbrutes blowing up Wyverns which were essential to give the Cultsist something to write home about. Deeper on the table the Cultists are actually doing really well. Taking casualties, but slamming into deep striking Scions where ever possible!

You can see from this picture my Possessed are all over the fatman (Creed). He tries wrapping his chubby fingers around his little pistols but too late, a possessed dude slaps him upside the head. The rest of Creed's squad is dead, and he does what he does best... the fatman runs for the table edge only to be melta'd in the buttocks by one of my immoblized Helbrutes. It's not what I'd call a 'glorifying' warlord kill but I'll take it.

Okay here's where things really go sideways.....

- Epic duel of the fates? Or simply a slapfest of the baddies?

- Krannon is barely able to do anything.. since he is in a challenge he cannot actually get 'kills' for his Relentless blade. So even with a mark of Khorne, rushing in with rage, and strength 5, he is met face on by a Eversor asssassin who makes Kranon's bumb 'ever sore'.

- The Eversor puts several wounds on Kranon (8!!!) in one turn, I save with 2+ all but 2. Thanks to 'It will not die' Kranon grows a wound back... but maybe it's just a tumour. The Eversor hacks down the wound again while gleefully saving all the wounds I can throw at him (Kranon is hitting on '4s' and the Eversor is hittingon '3s'.)

- At the same time, the Champion with the axe is trying to hack down the Eversor from behind... but he's a dodgy fellow and the axe can't kill him either.

- Finally after 3 rounds the Eversor slays Kranon, and the pitiful Axe champion (who has caused no wounds to the Eversor, but has managed to chop 3 of his own toes off) is also dead! It's games like this I don't know why I put so much more confidence in Kranon over say..... Khârn.

- On the plus side my Possessed are seen gleefully chasing the fatman (creed) down after rampaging through his command squad.

- The true Heroes of Chaos! These cultists prevent multiple scores from the Scions (not shown) and the Veterans. The Cultsists were key once the Wyverns were destroyed by the Helbrute formation.

- I end up winning 12-8 thanks to late game heroics. We exchange slay the warlord and line breaker.

- The Helbrute formation was dodgy at best. I thought plasma would be the way to go, but now I'm not so sure. I overheated, and deviated a lot. Plus plasma is horrible against armour which is 90% of what I faced. Plus my list has a lot of trouble with armour.

- Kranon had his worst game for me... ever. I did not have the benefit of Draznicht's Preferred Enemy because he died so bloody soon.... I just could not crack open a transport or vehicle of which he had so many of... just nothing would explode.

- The Helcult formation was really the start. Two large squads got me points, and while they weren't Obsec they simply tied up his Obsec and in one case I had rushed his Inquisitor squad which was deepstriking and killed the entire squad except the Inquisitor which was broken, and subsequently run down.... incredible. Unfortunately the Helbrute from the Helcult formation died. He did get some shots offf with his twin Autocannon but nothing great happened there.

I rolled Rage for my 3 Helbrute formation every turn. It was annoying, and a little complicated. I never quite knew if I should be running or not. The Helbrutes died VERY fast and killed almost nothing of note. All of the real damage was done by the one Helbrute that raged into the 2 Wyverns in the top of turn 3.

I hope you enjoyed this rushed batrep..... It was a lot of fun to play. We both had a lot of destruction by the end of it. (BTW: Last turn he hovered his Gunships and destroyed my Landraider... which never penetrated a darn thing all game.)

Thanks for reading.

[aceytrixx]

Good read. I've been looking at trying out those two formations later on in the year once I'm all painted up. I plan to deep strike 3 melta brutes and have a lascannon/missile launcher in the cult.

[incinerator950]

I can physically run both. Just not entirely sure if I should.

[Prot]

Good read. I've been looking at trying out those two formations later on in the year once I'm all painted up. I plan to deep strike 3 melta brutes and have a lascannon/missile launcher in the cult.

 

Thanks. 

 

When I typically play the Helcult formation I take a Lascannon/Powerfist. I have always wanted to do Las/Missile however today's game is pretty dynamic and almost every game someone is trying to deep strike around him. Sure enough late in this game a squad of 10 Scions Deep strike behind him to get an objective. With Rage as a result of the roll  I had to go back after him.

 

Don't forget you're often at the mercy of these silly crazed rolls and I find it helps to be versatile for those cases. 

 

As far as the 3 additional Helbrutes in the other formation, I would probably agree that MultiMelta is best. Heavy flamer if you can afford it is great. I only had one heavy flamer. But even a stormbolter for the ablative 'lost a weapon' result is nice.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Now that I've had some time to reflect on this game I'd like to comment on playing one or both of these formations going forward. However, I do want to acknowledge that if my opponent hadn't had so much in reserve, including his second HQ, 3 scion squads and 2 Gunships, I probably would have gotten completely hosed in this game.

 

- Helcult. I've played this many times since inception but always as a defensive unit to grab objectives and keep the Helbrute back and shooty. I really enjoyed it as an offensive unit with much bigger numbers (19 x 2) and a cheaper Helbrute meant to get into close combat if plausible.

 

- Mayhem. This is a lot tougher. I thought I'd love it, but it was so-so. Playing against a large army and the fact you yourself are aggressively closing the gap, I find you're limiting your deep strike options. I was VERY aggressive. I got very lucky getting that reserve roll in on turn one, and then having relatively no bad scatters. I wanted the Wyverns dead so badly I placed two Helbrutes there and did not misshap on either one which was truly against the odds considering where they were.

 

Thinking about other aspects of the Mayhem Pack, I didn't really benefit from the 'Tormented Terrors' aspect of it, but I guess when you're talking about the crazed table, you aren't supposed to. However it is annoying and something you MUST do regardless of their state of repair or function. 

 

As much as I did not like Tormented Terrors, I did forget to use It Will Not Die and many of my Helbrutes died slow, horrible deaths. I could have possibly saved hullpoints but to be honest while missing arms, and being immobile, it's kind of irrelevant for most of the pack.

 

Alternatives to the Mayhem Pack: I thought about this as well. I'm a huge proponent of Termicide squads... I have been for years. Let's compare them both priced at 'medium' equipment levels:

 

Helbrute: Plasma Cannon, Combi Bolter: 115

 

Terminators: 3 models, 2 axes, 2 combi-melta's. Champion with combi-plasma (this is my normal load out or if points are tight, the champ gets nothing.): 112

 

I tried to keep them relatively similar in pricing. What's the difference?

 

- Helbrute Mayhem Pack comes in together. Which is good and bad. Terminators might be better off coming later in game, or earlier.

- Terminators are relegated to one specialized shot each, but still have close combat ability, and a 2+/5++.

- Helbrutes have ongoing shooting but are at the mercy of Crazed every turn, and low AV. 

 

Finally, and this might be the tipping point for many smaller games: With Terminators you don't have to take 3 termicide squads if you don't want to. The Mayhem pack is never going to be cheaper than +/- 300 pts at the minimum.

 

It's up to you. The Helcult is definitely fun. The Mayhem is also fun, but feels a little awkward, but is certainly usable. It does fit an army like mine, or my World Eaters for certain as I'm rushing a lot of AV12 anyway.

[Iron Skull Mask]

Nice report and food for thought you provided here, thanks!

 

On the Helbrute vs Termicide issue: Aren't Helbrutes still tougher than the termis, shoot hard more often and punch much harder? I mean, I'm a big fan of Termicide but don't they die even quicker to the same stuff that kills the brutes, while being more vulnerable to massed smallarms fire?

 

Also, since you have to compare one Brute to one squad of Termis, aren't Brutes cheaper on a piece to piece basis (100 vs. 115 to 120ish with a fist)? In my opinion your best argument is that you don't have to take 3 units of Termis if you don't want to. But if you do, the Brutes seem to be better.

 

Do others have more thoughts on this?

[Prot]

Actually no, I don't find Termicide die faster... because one pen on a Helbrute and it could all be over, or at least you may lose the weapon you covet the most.

 

The Termies are a different animal. They are cheap, and often I only fire 2 of the 3 combi's the turn they come in. I usually save the plasma for a different target, or a weaker armour facing OR I may have fired the plasma, saw no real AP2 threat to the termies, and then saved the Melta for next turn.  Either way, the Termicide advantage is ablative wounds! 

 

If you ask me what I'd rather have, 3 wounds on 2+ armour or AV12 on one unit (with 3 hullpoints) I would usually take the 3 wounds. GW tried to fix the inherent problem with vehicles in 7th edition with hull points and a '7 ' on the pen chart being a kill shot.

 

Ask yourself this question (which I think is the problem with vehicles in 40K right now and was worse in 6th):

Would you rather have a Lascannon Predator with AV13/11 and 3 potential las shots a turn at the points it would cost.

OR

Would you take a 5-6 man Havok/Dev squad with 3 lascannons? 

 

Why would you make that choice?

 

In 7th I'll always go with the wounds. Just a preference but that's the best way I can convey the issue I see with Helbrutes. Not that it's a 'bad' issue. Just a consideration. :)

[Slaanbull]

But there's also the risk of your terminators running away after the first wound. I don't know the math though, and the explode result is probably more likely given the general arms our enemies carry.

 

I guess that it largely depends on the rest of your force, if you already have quite a bit of armor, flooding the enemy with options by deepstriking three helbrutes is really nice.

I still like the termicide unit though, but would never take more than two units at once, usually only one, but they don't carry the same bonus of arriving at the same time as other deepstrikers, risking them being taken off the table a unit at a time by a well prepared opponent.

 

I still have to paint up two more helbrutes though, so most of what I said is speculation. ;)

[Prot]

Yea I agree. You can go back and forth on that debate and that's why I brought up the Termicide. Just as an alternate choice if you don't want to field a bunch of armour, or be forced to take 3 units. I would definitely try it again.

[McGibs]

I like helbrutes because there's plenty of things in the game that cannot deal with them. with deepstrike, you can put them pretty accurately away from things that are geared towards one shotting them (don't land near meltas), and they can stomp around as they please. With terminators, they may have more wounds and less capability to be one shotted, but -everything- has the potential to damage them.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Always great to see the Battle report Prot :D

I'm looking into trying out a Mayhem pack to support my Lord & unit of Terminator bodyguard as a heavy strike force.  I've always enjoy useing Terminators in my Iron Warriors.  From the Helbrute topic a while back, it made me want to try the Helbrute to add that wieght & add more threat.  Point permitting, I would also have my Sorcerer who would be there to help out with re-rolls, ignore cover - I need to double check these to see if I can cast them on unit near by (still getting use the psychic power).

 

Just somthing I though be cool having both unit support each other & Sorcerer help out.  Image wise it pretty cool having this strike force take on those important area in trench or siege warfare.  Just trying to get the models converted up right now to try this out in a few games.

 

Have you try the five Helbrute formation yet?

[Prot]

Thanks IP.

 

No I haven't tried the big one... I've seen it in action though and it is definitely very potent for high point games. Being able to dictate the crazed effect is quite strong.... 

 

I too LOVE chaos termies. Always have and I agree that the Helbrute Mayhem pack might be a perfect bodyguard to a Termie squad dropping in. Personally whenever I think of doing this with my Crimson Slaughter I think of taking a Balestar Sorc to drp in wht them potentially getting off some sweet Divination abilties. :)