miteyheroes Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'm just getting back into playing 40k - I played a fair amount in 5th, and a bit in 6th. But haven't yet in 7th. Reading the rules for flying monstrous creatures, am I right that when a Bloodthirster/Lord of Change/DP-with-wings arrives via Deep Strike they must start Swooping? And they can't assault from Swooping, or on the turn they become Gliding? So a Bloodthirster is basically useless unless you deploy him at the start of the game - he spends 1 turn arriving and so swooping, 1 turn changing to gliding, and only on his 3rd turn does he get to assault. Or can he change for swooping to gliding on the turn he arrives? Regarding Jink, it says that if you are Swooping and Jink, then in your next turn you can only fire Snap Shots. Does this mean that Jinking Lords of Change then can't use shooty psychic powers? But could they still use Summoning? Sorry for the very basic questions! I'm more of a modeller than a gamer... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 When a flying unit arrives from reserve coming in from a table edge you can choose whether its gliding or swooping. When it arrives from deepstrike reserve it comes in in gliding mode. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3917999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Regarding jink. Its not relevant whether its swooping or gliding, the FMC recieves the jink rule allowing the model to receive a 4+ cover at the cost of snap firing. This is where a nurgle daemon prince is amazing as its able to jink offering it a 2+ cover bcos of shrouded. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3918003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 You can still use shooting attacks from a jinking FMC but due to the snap fire rules you can't fire and blast weapons or flamer template weapons but beams still work and wytch fire spells too but hit on 6s Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3918009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
miteyheroes Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 When a flying unit arrives from reserve coming in from a table edge you can choose whether its gliding or swooping. When it arrives from deepstrike reserve it comes in in gliding mode. The Deployment section of the FMC rules, p.68 in my mini-softback-rulebook, says that if they're deployed at the start, they are Gliding. From normal reserves, they're Swooping or Gliding, up to you. From Deep Strike Reserve, they're Swooping... Which I can see makes sense, for say Tyranid guys dropping from orbit. But makes less sense for Summoning. And seems to really hurt the Bloodthirster as a summoned creature. Oh, I hadn't spotted that you can Jink even when Gliding. That is neat! And yes, I see now why Nurgle Flying Daemon Princes are good... I think that you can't use Beams as Snap Shots? Or Novas? (Or, as you said, templates & blasts). As the Snap Shot rules say that "any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot". But yes, I see that I will be able to use other Witchfires. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3918076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Beams and novas can be used as the caster is not require to make a hit roll Beyond this, I wasn't aware of the swooping restriction on summoned fmc daemons. Which means I have been doing it incorrectly. I guess he still has his whip tho Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3918590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
miteyheroes Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 I was kind of hoping that there would be a FAQ somewhere which said that Summoned / Deep Striking FMC Daemons could come on as either Gliding or Swooping... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3918928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Swooping seems to make sense and is relevant, but I would suggest when summoning a GD just don't summon one with wings! Tho personally I have often summoned a LoC just for the psychic dice and the opportunity to use psychic powers versus other FMC or flyers without penalty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
miteyheroes Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yes, I can definitely see the use of LoC for flying psychic support. But now to figure out who to get for CC summoning support. GUO or KoS, decisions decisions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I find both the LoC and the Daemon Prince (be it marine or daemon) as excellent summoning bots for an army. I buy them wings and I rely on flying around and the reroll of Daemon of Tzeentch to keep them safe. The main advantage is that you can fly toward an interesting point on the board (hopefully behind a tall structure or out of line of sight with the enemy AA guns) and then you summon and summon and summon again... In cover you place Horrors, on relatively open objective you place Plaguebearers and if preparing for an assault you load on Daemonettes. Usually I have seen this tactics as a safe way to use a psychic FMC and it can bear a lot of good for every Chaos army if employed well. As for assaulting as a FMC, I agree it is perilous, especially the turn you have to land. Still landing with a Bloodthirster close to the enemy line makes many an adversary uneasy. You can take advantage of the pressure you project and use the respite to maneuver your more viable assets around. You can almost guarantee that the Bloodthirster will be drowned in enemy fire and remember the bullets spent on him and bullets not spent on your daemons holding objectives, on your daemons moving to flank the enemy and on your daemons which run into assault. Non necessarily a powerful melee FMC is an impediment to your strategy. Use it to project dread, to create a safe zone or a distraction for other units to move in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Beams and novas can be used as the caster is not require to make a hit rollIsn't that exactly the reason why they cannot be fired as snap shots? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Novas and beams can be fired because there is no need to roll to hit, so snap shooting has no effect on the powers. Snap shooting only effects how templates work, and you final BS score. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If your against eldar I would go KoS statistically its got a much better chance at smashing some face, but against anything else go GUO everytime. Your also hoping to DS the model into cover/terrain looking for that awesome 2/3+ cover Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Novas and beams can be fired because there is no need to roll to hit, so snap shooting has no effect on the powers. Thus they do not use Ballistic Skill. So they cannot be fired as Snap Shots. If everything has to fired as snap shots after a jink, then only the things which can be fired as a snap shot may be used. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I don't know how much clearer I can be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I don't know how much clearer I can be. I know fantasy much better than 40k, but I would xarry over the thought than a line is a template (not the "template" shape of course) and can't be snap fired, but that is probably another glaring hole in the 40k rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ok referring to page 32 of the brb last paragraph on the page under the title of snap shots. Notably there is only one listing of how snap shots are resolved in the brb. "If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, then the ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots..." Goes on to discussing bs0 Page 27 psychic powers. Beam "..." No mention of anything to do with snap firing Nova "..." Also no mention Please point out to me where you are concluding your interpretation of the rules? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You seem to be missing a few sentences. From the Snap Shot rule: "In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot." From Jink: "can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn." Baams and Novas cannot be fired as Snap Shots. We seem to agree on this. However in your posts you seem to think that since it cannot be fired as a snap shot means it may be freely used. If they can not be fired as a snap shot, then they can not be used at all after a jink. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Which page are you quoting this from? (I have place page quotes I would appreciate it if you could do the same): "From the Snap Shot rule: "In addition, any shooting attack that does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot" I'm not missing anything I only mentioned what was relevant to the discussion we were having. If I mention the entire section (again) it says the same thing I mentioned above: Page 32 under the heading snap shots: "Under specific circumstances, models must fire snap shots - optimistic bursts of fire 'snapped' off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of snap shots are when models with heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn (pg 41) or when units make overwatch shots (pg 45). If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally, its ballistic skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a ballistic skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot, as explained on page 9)." I took no pleasure in writing that out, there is no "in addition too" section or sentence as you have mentioned. So I ask again please point out how you are concluding your understanding of the rules? Please do so with quotations and page numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Keep reading. It is in the rest of the Snap Shot rule. Same page. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I don't agree that beams and novas need to roll to hit either, I simply don't understand how your concluding that they also don't hit because the model using them is forced to snap fire. The only thing we agree on is a jinking model must snap fire Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm saying this with a great deal of patience, but I'm starting to get annoyed. If you don't quote your page number and ruling I'm not going to take part in this conversation any further. There is nothing else on this page: http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u644/jimjimjimmyjim/E381A11E-6999-4EE1-98E3-A73498F7BE32_zps6d9lyyxg.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Wait on. Page 33 does actually go on... "In addition, any shooting attack that does not use ballistic skill cannot be 'fired' as a snap shot." I believe this is what your referring too? That's fine, novas and beams are still fine to be used! novas and beams do not use ballistic skill, so they cannot be fired as a snap shot. So what's your point then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 So ... Nova and Beam do not use Ballistic Skils. So Nova and Beam are not (and cannot be) fired as Snap Shots. Novas and Beams ==> no snap shot. I think we are in alignment here. However, when a unit choses to Jink, it can only fire snapshots. Blast weapons cannot be fired as snap shots, so no blast weapons. We agree on this. Beams cannot be fired as snap shots. OK, so they are not covered by the Snap Shot rule. Beams can only be fired normally. Jink can ONLY fire snap shots. Beam can ONLY fire normally .... The two are mutually exclusive. You cannot do both at the same time. Therefore, Jink means snap shots only which means if it cannot be fired as a snapshot (like Beams and Novas) then it can not be fired. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimjimmyjim Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ok I think I understand what your saying But I disagree cos nova and beam and completely irrelevant to snap firing as they don't use the BS rules Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301888-flying-mc-rules-questions/#findComment-3919687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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