malorn24 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Would the Wolf King, Custodes, and Silent Sisters been able to defeat the Thousand Sons had Magnus not decided that suicide by wolf was the best option for him and would have been in the think of things from the beginning? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf86 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Maybe not defeat but certainly I think they would have massively reduced the Wolves down to Raven Guard/Salamander levels. Magnus sent the fleet away and effectively negated their (probably not mega powerful) orbital defences. So if they fought in the void till annihilation they would have mauled the fleet sent and reduced the number making planetfall. On the ground could they have made much more difference. Pretty much all the Sons fought. The Spireguard if better organised could have cause a thousand more casualties? I guess fewer Raptora would have died holding the kine shield if the Prosperine fleet was there to try and hold off the Wolves? The flesh change becoming rife was the last turning point I think. Maybe if they had committed to Tzeentch from the out and suffered less flesh change they would have won? Magnus could have wrecked a lot of landers as they came in I suppose. And until he met Russ he could have killed a lot of astartes. He may or may not have lost to Russ-it's all chance. If he killed or maims Russ I think he would just stomp the Rout remaining. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Operative Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 If Prospero were prepared I think the Thousand Sons would have been victorious, the space wolves are ferocious but that wouldn't have helped against a Legion of psykers fully prepared and fighting for their homeworld. Magnus is an absolute killing machine with the power to kill thousands of soldiers and so the silent sisters would have been no challenge for him as he could have plucked them out of thin air. If Magnus would have warned his legion from the beginning when he transported himself to the emperor then the Legion could have fortified Tizca and armed all the civilians if necessary, I can't seem to remember how long it took for the wolves to arrive but by then Tizca would be a fully prepared fortress pretty much. Traps could have been set up, barricades created and killing fields drawn up. So all in all the Space Wolves would have had no chance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 okay, the problem I always have with this scenario is Tzeentch, specifically, could Tzeentch have destroyed the Wolf fleet en route as promised? One one hand I believe Tzeentch has the power to do so. On the other I wonder if Tzeentch acted, would other powerful beings (such as the Emperor) moved to counter or would the Sisters of Silence's abilities countered the Tzeentch shenanigans? so even the beginning of the question is hard. If we move past that, and question if would the Wolves have succeeded if they engaged the Thousand Sons?I believe that if the Thousand Sons had been properly prepared, then both Legions would have been effectively destroyed. The orbital defenses of the Thousand Sons would have punished the Wolves, but with a Primarch leading the fleet, I do believe the Wolves could have driven off/destroyed the fleet. Now would this mean the Wolves could have turned the ships into falling bombs, such as they did with the space station in Prospero Burns? Because as the Talon of Horus shows, a battle ship crashing into a city does an almost unbelievable amount of damage, perhaps more than the shields of the Thousand Sons could withstand. when battle on the planet commences, the home field advantage of the Thousand Sons is a massive advantage...not to discount their freaking Titan. With Magnus at the head, the Wolves would haveto fall back to the "safe zones" granted by the Sisters of Silence and that factor is why I think the Wolves could effective destroy the Thousand Sons. The Sisters of Silence, combined with the orbital supremacy of the Wolves, is a powerful asset. (I've always wondered why naval ships just dont bombard Titans from orbit) I think the savagery of the Wolves would mean neither party would walk away from this fight. I do believe Russ would still take Magnus, and the Thousand Sons would still flee, but the Wolves as a Legion would be destroyed as well. my 2 cents. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 As written, if Magnus had warned his legion that the Wolves were coming, then chances are the Wolves wouldn't have even managed to make planetfall in reasonable numbers. The orbital defenses and the fleet would have been active and on alert, plus you can't discount the shenanigans that telekinetic capabilities backed by the power of a primarch could get up to in your average ship's engine room. Plasma reactors are deathtraps even without using magic to knock critical thingiemabobs out of proper alignment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolf86 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 All good points. The sisters of silence could have been weakened for if they had been prepared for. As in take you best shooters and task them with just sniping them froma distance! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 All of these are basically what I was thinking. Therefore the logic in only send the wolves and company makes no tactical sense. Now i understand that the Big E sent Russ to bring back Magnus and it was Horus that convinced Russ to just go kill him. But neither makes a lick of tactical sense from either of them. The Big E knew of Magnus's power so even if it wsa just escort duties Russ couldn't have done it if Magnus refused. For Horus it makes no sense unless you buy into the theroy that Horus knew he couldn't have either of the legions so he wanted them both destroyed but then that would not be what the Choas gods wanted so therefore that doesn't make sense either. But I do agree that I think that Magnus would have wiped enough of wolves out for his his entire legion to be brought to bear fighting Russ and even Russ wouldn't have been able to stop them even if they just used enough bolt rounds. That tactic taken from Russ himself when he had is "squabble' with Angron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 well,I think a major problem with the Fall of Prospero is how it was presented. Now I know many people like McNeill, but we really only say the Wolves and their fight for Prospero from the Thousand Son point of view. I found A Thousand Sons a bit...silly at times and was hoping for a clearer picture with the companion novel Prospero Burns. Sadly, we have a very narrow view of the Fall of Prospero from that novel, not enough to form a solid opinion with. All we know is that the Emperor (maybe Malcador?) sent Russ to bring Magnus home, by force is necessary. Horus altered the orders to kill Magnus. What this tells me is tat the force sent with Russ must have been strong enough to atleast accomplish either of those goals, because neither Russ nor the Emperor/Malcador are stupid. Russ is pragmatic enough to see the threat a Legion of psykers defending their Primarch on their home world represents. But we never see this, and are left with the image of the Thousand Sons easily pounding the Wolves due to the...limited view we have of the incident. all that said, one thing I just thought of is this: the immense powers unleashed by the Thousand Sons also brought upon the flesh change mutation. I do wonder how this would have impacted the T-Sons in their battle against the Wolves. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3918548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Considering simple numbers, I think a Space Wolf victory was guaranteed. That said, if Magnus had gone full rebel, Russ' victory would easily be a pyrrhic victory in the making. As others have mentioned, having that many psykers and Magnus would've led to an incredibly brutal battle. But I don't think Magnus could've pulled off a victory, and if he was convinced to cut ties to the Imperium, his best option would be to take his sons and their knowledge, and high-tail it out of there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3919999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I thought the whole point of Horus directing the Space Wolves to attack Prospero rather then escort Magnus back to Terra, was to effectively wipe out 2 Legions. Who ever won, it would have been a pyrrhic victory. I wonder how Horus felt about Magnus actions, on one hand he gained a new and powerfull, but battered, ally, but eh Space Wolves remained a credible threat, one that tied up the Alpha Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malios Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 First time poster guys (go easy on me!) In my humble opinion, I don't think we'll ever really know the answer to that question. The general theme behind the fall of Prospero was that the whole event was a great tragedy for both sides: that even the most pure of intentions (Magnus in his attempt to warn the Emperor of the coming Heresy and Russ with his unwavering commitment to his duty) could be manipulated and corrupted beyond recognition which resulted in catastrophic damage to both legions. And worse still... the entire tragedy was orchestrated from its very beginning of which the targetted pieces danced to the tune of their puppet master the entire time. I think that if there was a chance that the Thousand Sons could have won, the impact of such a tragedy upon the greater heresy would not have been so powerful. Thus I think they were doomed from the start. In saying that however, fracturing the skull of your executioner when caught on the toilet with your pants down as the Thousand Sons so impressively did to the Space Wolves is an extremely impressive feat in itself. Just as it was impressive for the Space Wolves to charge headlong into the carnage without batting an eyelid, even though they knew exactly who they were up against. This only highlights why the Chaos Gods went to such extreme measures to significantly neutralise both parties with such an elaborate plan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Hey Malios, welcome to the B&C and the Age of Darkness :) I really do think the Space Wolves were supposed to grind themselves into nothing on Prospero, thus eliminating a powerful faction, and with Magnus, undecided, loyalties, I think even in the days past Porspero a part of him wanted to remain loyal to the Emperor, he takes out a potential enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Hello, Malios. For your first post, I'm impressed on how eloquent it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 if you look at it as technically the T-Sons are a true loyal legion and would have been had Vanity in powers not pushed Magnus to stupiditiy I think that it boils down to the mutal destruction of two loyalist legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Actually, its a combination of Tzeentch "JUST AS PLANNED" Shenanigans and Magnus not expecting there to be a Malign Intelligence of Greater Proportions than he in the Warp that could/did/will/has made him dance like a puppet in his...appendages. Theirs is, I think, the greatest of tragedies in 30k for were it not for Horus and the Gods conspiring against them, they would have stood Loyal against the Heresy. ..Mine will definitely be Loyalists though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 if you look at it as technically the T-Sons are a true loyal legion and would have been had Vanity in powers not pushed Magnus to stupiditiy I think that it boils down to the mutal destruction of two loyalist legions. i always point this out in Magnus debates, but by the time of Prospero the T-Sons and Magnus had already broken multiple vows to the Emperor. he might not have been planning to slag the Palace, but he nor his legion were loyal. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I'm forced to agree here. While I don't feel Magnus or his legion would have willingly turned against the Emperor, they certainly weren't the poster boys for loyalty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Very few were ever Poster Boys of loyalty. hell Angron resented him from day one for not dying in the final battle with the highriders. Curze and Mortarion and even the Khan never really showed much interest in the Big E. Hell didn't the khan virtually ignore the Nikea Edict? And technically Dorn did as well when he didn't return them to the line but rather locked them away in the Phalanx for a "break glass in case of emergency" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 All the other Primarchs seemed fairly confident that Russ would kill Magnus, when mentioned that the VI was going to Prospero, though they don't say much about the states of their Legions afterward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Very few were ever Poster Boys of loyalty. hell Angron resented him from day one for not dying in the final battle with the highriders. Curze and Mortarion and even the Khan never really showed much interest in the Big E. Hell didn't the khan virtually ignore the Nikea Edict? And technically Dorn did as well when he didn't return them to the line but rather locked them away in the Phalanx for a "break glass in case of emergency" Angron went traitor. Bad example Mortarion went traitor. Bad example Khan did ignore the Edict. Dorn didnt, because the edict required that Librarians cease using their power. He may have taken in one step further in locking them up, but for all appearances of the Edict he followed it. Had the Khan's blatant refusal of the Edict been noticed (an ongoing theme of the White Scars...continually looked over) and the Heresy not occured,then I think things would have gone differently for him. Unlike Magnus, the Khan didnt have a history of deliberately defiance and conflict with many of his brothers. Magnus had more than a few strike against him by the time his "little" accident at sorcery happened. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3920878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 If the Thousand Sons had been prepared for the battle I believe they would have won. Maybe not decisively, but they would have won. But, IMO any legion attacking another legion's Homeworld without some sort of advantage like Russ had is doomed to failure. If the Word Bearers had come in guns blazing at Calth the Ultramarines would have roflstomped them and only by masterful deceit were they able to gain the upper hand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3921123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 If the Thousand Sons had been prepared for the battle I believe they would have won. Maybe not decisively, but they would have won. But, IMO any legion attacking another legion's Homeworld without some sort of advantage like Russ had is doomed to failure. If the Word Bearers had come in guns blazing at Calth the Ultramarines would have roflstomped them and only by masterful deceit were they able to gain the upper hand. Russ had the advantage. He has the Sisterhood of SIlence, if he spread them across his ships to create psychic null zones he would basically remove their mind-powers from the equation. Then all you have it two Legions ripping each other apart. It's irrelevant who would have 'won' because whomever lives out of that is son to a broken Legion. They are neutralised from the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3921289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (I've always wondered why naval ships just dont bombard Titans from orbit) You get to see exactly that in The Purge. Every Titan on planet, except the Warhounds, were targeted individually and put down like rabid dogs. The Warhouds had the speed and agility to clear an impact site prior to the strike, thus had to be hunted down individually. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3921606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I'm forced to agree here. While I don't feel Magnus or his legion would have willingly turned against the Emperor, they certainly weren't the poster boys for loyalty. I think we're conflating obedience with loyalty. If Magnus hadn't been loyal, then he wouldn't have bothered to try and stop Horus from turning, nor would he have attempted to warn the Emperor of that fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3921781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I'm forced to agree here. While I don't feel Magnus or his legion would have willingly turned against the Emperor, they certainly weren't the poster boys for loyalty. I think we're conflating obedience with loyalty. If Magnus hadn't been loyal, then he wouldn't have bothered to try and stop Horus from turning, nor would he have attempted to warn the Emperor of that fact. a friend of mine recently said the same thing. My reply was and still is: Disobedient is letting in the dirt in the house. when you ally yourself with Tzeentch, despite having exact warning of who that is and what it does, then it's betrayal, and no word shenanigans is going to state otherwise. example: I was disobedient when I snuck out past curfew example: I betrayed my father when I allied with a warp entity for more power and doomed myself, my Legion, and the Imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301903-thousand-sons-new-thought/#findComment-3921838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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