Thousand Sons new thought

[Operative]

 

 

I'm forced to agree here. While I don't feel Magnus or his legion would have willingly turned against the Emperor, they certainly weren't the poster boys for loyalty.

 

I think we're conflating obedience with loyalty.  If Magnus hadn't been loyal, then he wouldn't have bothered to try and stop Horus from turning, nor would he have attempted to warn the Emperor of that fact.  

 

 

a friend of mine recently said the same thing.

 

My reply was and still is: 

 

Disobedient is letting in the dirt in the house. when you ally yourself with Tzeentch, despite having exact warning of who that is and what it does, then it's betrayal, and no word shenanigans is going to state otherwise.

example: I was disobedient when I snuck out past curfew

example: I betrayed my father when I allied with a warp entity for more power and doomed myself, my Legion, and the Imperium

 

Whilst Magnus may have suffered as of his huge Ego thinking he could defy a God entity of the warp, it doesn't mean he wasn't loyal for thinking that way.

 

Magnus and his Legion embodied the spirit of a crusade: Its more than just a fight to reunite humanity, but a process by which Humanity can be free of religious dogma, conflict and ignorance and can pursue an age of learning, reason and unity.

 

Magnus may not have conquered the most planets, he may have used frowned upon methods but he certainly didn't betray his father.

[malorn24]

So it sounds like Magnus saw it as a means justifies the ends and then had it blow up in his face because he thought to highly of himself. I don't think Magnus was disloyal just disobediant. yes he knew that he was violating the edict but he thought that he would get a big daddy hug in the end when daddy found out horus was a backstabber.

[Operative]

Also 1 thing I don't understand: Wasn't it mentioned in "A Thousand Sons" that Magnus and the Emperor regularly conversed in the Great Ocean even before they ever met, and so wouldn't Magnus be able to communicate to the Emperor by the same means to warn him of Horus' betrayal or does the distance play a part in it?

[A D-B]

Considering simple numbers, I think a Space Wolf victory was guaranteed. That said, if Magnus had gone full rebel, Russ' victory would easily be a pyrrhic victory in the making. As others have mentioned, having that many psykers and Magnus would've led to an incredibly brutal battle. But I don't think Magnus could've pulled off a victory...

 

It's a tough call. So many factors involved, many of which aren't highlighted in the books. 

 

"Numbers" is vague a idea at this point, because A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns still used the incorrect smaller Legion numbers, which throws a wrench in the calculations. 

But even in terms of simple even numbers, yes, Russ had the Sisterhood of Silence and some Custodians. But how many? Russ was sent to arrest Magnus, not conquer the planet. So he'd have had a significant force - enough to back up his orders and show he could enact the Emperor's wish to bring Magnus back to Terra - but we don't know (yet) exactly how big that force was. A "sizeable and serious force to show you mean business and to bring your brother back on your father's orders" doesn't necessarily equate to "a force capable of invading a planet wholesale and annihilating your brother's Legion in a guaranteed victory".

 

Then there's the matter of the fleet. All things being equal, the Space Wolves would have had to break through the Thousand Sons' armada above Prospero, making planetfall while a fleet of roughly equal size (and perhaps the planetary defences, as well?) was pounding the Space Wolf fleet and landing force with immense firepower. That's not a small factor. 

 

I think it's essentially fair to say that they probably would've been about equal, overall, because of the Custodians and Sisters of Silence... had Magnus not betrayed his Legion by blinding them to the threat; sending his fleet away; ruining any chance of a planetary defence, and letting his entire force get crucified from ambush. Saying it'd be an easy or guaranteed Space Wolf victory is a reach, given just how utterly and completely the Thousand Sons were hindered. Destroying a Legion on its home ground is no easy feat.

 

And this is just what we know and can infer from the limited lore we have on it. The eventual Forge World book will likely cast more light on the situation, while also adding more variables.

 

It's practically impossible to know, really. So many factors and variables are in play.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

I'm forced to agree here. While I don't feel Magnus or his legion would have willingly turned against the Emperor, they certainly weren't the poster boys for loyalty.

 

I think we're conflating obedience with loyalty.  If Magnus hadn't been loyal, then he wouldn't have bothered to try and stop Horus from turning, nor would he have attempted to warn the Emperor of that fact.  

 

 

a friend of mine recently said the same thing.

 

My reply was and still is: 

 

Disobedient is letting in the dirt in the house. when you ally yourself with Tzeentch, despite having exact warning of who that is and what it does, then it's betrayal, and no word shenanigans is going to state otherwise.

example: I was disobedient when I snuck out past curfew

example: I betrayed my father when I allied with a warp entity for more power and doomed myself, my Legion, and the Imperium

 

Whilst Magnus may have suffered as of his huge Ego thinking he could defy a God entity of the warp, it doesn't mean he wasn't loyal for thinking that way.

 

Magnus and his Legion embodied the spirit of a crusade: Its more than just a fight to reunite humanity, but a process by which Humanity can be free of religious dogma, conflict and ignorance and can pursue an age of learning, reason and unity.

 

Magnus may not have conquered the most planets, he may have used frowned upon methods but he certainly didn't betray his father.

 

 

it kinda does.

 

Warp to Magnus: Follow me bro, I can give you more power

Magnus to Warp: Cool bro, unlimited powa!

 

Emperor to Magnus: Listen, the warp isnt to to be trusted. they dont get "bro" loyalty

Magnus to Emperor: Really? The warp is tr-tr-tr-trippin yo! 

Emperor to Magnus: You need to stop rollin with them. 

Magnus to Emperor: Fo sho yo!

*Emperor leaves the room*

Magnus to Warp: Still bro's?

*warp fist appears, presents knuckles to Magnus*

Warp to Magnus: of course bro. Want more warp dust?

 

Simplified and dumbed down, but adapted from Collected Visions.

 

Thats just the first time.

 

@ A D-B: thanks for chiming in, all interesting information.

 

WLK

[depthcharge12]

The Emperor should have been a better father...letting his sons play with those warp hoodlums. I'm calling DCFS!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Emperor should have been a better father...letting his sons play with those warp hoodlums. I'm calling DCFS!

 

except he did. The Emperor warned Magnus of the dangers of the Warp and spent much time traveling the warp with Magnus.

 

Frankly, only primarch that has legitimate beef (in my oh so humble opinion) with the Emperor is Angron.

 

WLK

[Jareddm]

 

Considering simple numbers, I think a Space Wolf victory was guaranteed. That said, if Magnus had gone full rebel, Russ' victory would easily be a pyrrhic victory in the making. As others have mentioned, having that many psykers and Magnus would've led to an incredibly brutal battle. But I don't think Magnus could've pulled off a victory...

 

It's a tough call. So many factors involved, many of which aren't highlighted in the books. 

 

"Numbers" is vague a idea at this point, because A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns still used the incorrect smaller Legion numbers, which throws a wrench in the calculations. 

On that note, has anyone picked up the hardcover of A Thousand Sons?  Have the numbers been updated?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

So it sounds like Magnus saw it as a means justifies the ends and then had it blow up in his face because he thought to highly of himself. I don't think Magnus was disloyal just disobediant. yes he knew that he was violating the edict but he thought that he would get a big daddy hug in the end when daddy found out horus was a backstabber.

Actually, Magnus had considered the punishment of breaking the Edict and he though that even if it costs him his reputation, it would be better to warn The Emperor of Horus' treachery. Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission, And that's the choice he made. What he could not have known was that he was being manipulated.

[simison]

 

Considering simple numbers, I think a Space Wolf victory was guaranteed. That said, if Magnus had gone full rebel, Russ' victory would easily be a pyrrhic victory in the making. As others have mentioned, having that many psykers and Magnus would've led to an incredibly brutal battle. But I don't think Magnus could've pulled off a victory...

 

It's a tough call. So many factors involved, many of which aren't highlighted in the books...

 

It's practically impossible to know, really. So many factors and variables are in play.

 

 

 

Fair enough. I hadn't considered the Thousand Sons' fleet when I was thinking of the scenario. 

[Gree]

Simplified and dumbed down, but adapted from Collected Visions.

 

Thats just the first time.

 

 

 

I feel obligated to point out for others in this thread, that A Thousand Sons presents a different version of events, where no such thing happens and it's more Magnus trying to save his Legion from the Flesh Change, rather than any desire for personal power.

 

I mean, if you want to go with the Collected Visions version that is entirely your prerogative as a poster, but the Collected Visions is being steadily ignored in the novel series. (The Battle of Calth for example).

[daveNYC]

 

So it sounds like Magnus saw it as a means justifies the ends and then had it blow up in his face because he thought to highly of himself. I don't think Magnus was disloyal just disobediant. yes he knew that he was violating the edict but he thought that he would get a big daddy hug in the end when daddy found out horus was a backstabber.

Actually, Magnus had considered the punishment of breaking the Edict and he though that even if it costs him his reputation, it would be better to warn The Emperor of Horus' treachery. Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission, And that's the choice he made. What he could not have known was that he was being manipulated.

 

 

Actually by the time he made the run at Terra he should have at least had the inkling that something was up.  His first bargain with the warp was done to halt the fleshchange.  By all appearances, that had been a success.  However the fleshchange had come back prior to his attempted warning, so he probably shouldn't have been quite as trusting.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Simplified and dumbed down, but adapted from Collected Visions.

 

Thats just the first time.

 

 

 

I feel obligated to point out for others in this thread, that A Thousand Sons presents a different version of events, where no such thing happens and it's more Magnus trying to save his Legion from the Flesh Change, rather than any desire for personal power.

 

I mean, if you want to go with the Collected Visions version that is entirely your prerogative as a poster, but the Collected Visions is being steadily ignored in the novel series. (The Battle of Calth for example).

 

 

A Thousand Sons presents a biased version of event, where the majority of any wrong doing is removed and Magnus polished to a shiny turd.

 

Until see something in print that goes directly against or over-rides the parts of Collected Visions i'm referring to, it's still legit.

 

WLK

[Gree]

A Thousand Sons presents a biased version of event, where the majority of any wrong doing is removed and Magnus polished to a shiny turd.

 

Until see something in print that goes directly against or over-rides the parts of Collected Visions i'm referring to, it's still legit.

As I said, that is entirely your prerogative as a hobbyist. Collected Visions are about as ''legit'' as anything else in 40k. Unfortunately, as I said, Collected Visions is steadily being ignored or retconned. We are rather clearly shown Magnus's fall in recent lore and it has very little to do with the grasp for personal power. If you want to continue to stick to outdated lore, than you can totally do that, but it's not the lore being reflected in the main Horus Heresy series.

 

However if you insist on bringing it up as part of a debate as for Magnus's reasons, well I will continue to point out the contradicting accounts of Magnus's fall. If only for the benefit of those uninformed.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

A Thousand Sons presents a biased version of event, where the majority of any wrong doing is removed and Magnus polished to a shiny turd.

 

Until see something in print that goes directly against or over-rides the parts of Collected Visions i'm referring to, it's still legit.

As I said, that is entirely your prerogative as a hobbyist. Collected Visions are about as ''legit'' as anything else in 40k. Unfortunately, as I said, Collected Visions is steadily being ignored or retconned. We are rather clearly shown Magnus's fall in recent lore and it has very little to do with the grasp for personal power. If you want to continue to stick to outdated lore, than you can totally do that, but it's not the lore being reflected in the main Horus Heresy series.

 

However if you insist on bringing it up as part of a debate as for Magnus's reasons, well I will continue to point out the contradicting accounts of Magnus's fall. If only for the benefit of those uninformed.

 

 

whatever floats your boat Gree.

 

WLK

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

Simplified and dumbed down, but adapted from Collected Visions.

 

Thats just the first time.

 

I feel obligated to point out for others in this thread, that A Thousand Sons presents a different version of events, where no such thing happens and it's more Magnus trying to save his Legion from the Flesh Change, rather than any desire for personal power.

 

I mean, if you want to go with the Collected Visions version that is entirely your prerogative as a poster, but the Collected Visions is being steadily ignored in the novel series. (The Battle of Calth for example).

A Thousand Sons presents a biased version of event, where the majority of any wrong doing is removed and Magnus polished to a shiny turd.

 

Until see something in print that goes directly against or over-rides the parts of Collected Visions i'm referring to, it's still legit.

 

WLK

and collected visions could be considered biased Imperial Propaganda meant to make the Traitors look evil. There is no one answer in 40k. I personally, will go with the POV presented in ATS over pictures.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

Simplified and dumbed down, but adapted from Collected Visions.

 

Thats just the first time.

I feel obligated to point out for others in this thread, that A Thousand Sons presents a different version of events, where no such thing happens and it's more Magnus trying to save his Legion from the Flesh Change, rather than any desire for personal power.

 

I mean, if you want to go with the Collected Visions version that is entirely your prerogative as a poster, but the Collected Visions is being steadily ignored in the novel series. (The Battle of Calth for example).

A Thousand Sons presents a biased version of event, where the majority of any wrong doing is removed and Magnus polished to a shiny turd.

 

Until see something in print that goes directly against or over-rides the parts of Collected Visions i'm referring to, it's still legit.

 

WLK

and collected visions could be considered biased Imperial Propaganda meant to make the Traitors look evil. There is no one answer in 40k. I personally, will go with the POV presented in ATS over pictures.

 

 

I'm sure the "Prodigal Son of Magnus" is as unbiased as "Wolf Lord Kieran".

 

WLK

[depthcharge12]

Gentlemen. Please settle down before the thread gets slagged.

[Beta galactosidase]

Actually, its a combination of Tzeentch "JUST AS PLANNED" Shenanigans and Magnus not expecting there to be a Malign Intelligence of Greater Proportions than he in the Warp that could/did/will/has made him dance like a puppet in his...appendages.

 

Theirs is, I think, the greatest of tragedies in 30k for were it not for Horus and the Gods conspiring against them, they would have stood Loyal against the Heresy.

..Mine will definitely be Loyalists though.

 

I feel like if he had stayed "loyal," the post-heresy period could have become pretty rough for the Imperium.  You put that guy on the golden throne, and suddenly the scholastica psykana is handing every hedge-wizard his own personal and totally benign warp entity.  It's like saying oh yeah, it's a shame Perturabo and Kurze became traitors, they would have been great on the High Lords.

[simison]

 

Actually, its a combination of Tzeentch "JUST AS PLANNED" Shenanigans and Magnus not expecting there to be a Malign Intelligence of Greater Proportions than he in the Warp that could/did/will/has made him dance like a puppet in his...appendages.

 

Theirs is, I think, the greatest of tragedies in 30k for were it not for Horus and the Gods conspiring against them, they would have stood Loyal against the Heresy.

..Mine will definitely be Loyalists though.

 

I feel like if he had stayed "loyal," the post-heresy period could have become pretty rough for the Imperium.  You put that guy on the golden throne, and suddenly the scholastica psykana is handing every hedge-wizard his own personal and totally benign warp entity.  It's like saying oh yeah, it's a shame Perturabo and Kurze became traitors, they would have been great on the High Lords.

 

 

 

I always imagined Magnus' body sitting on the golden throne, while his incorpreal form got to explore the Webway and interact with everyone. Don't see how putting him on the Golden Throne gives him control over the Imperium's psyker policies.

[Beta galactosidase]

Dude it's just metonymous.

 

 

 

 

"if Magnus had stayed loyal he would have been one of the ten most powerful individuals in a victorious Imperium, and would have been in a position to spread his inherently tzeentchian behaviors."

[Hyaenidae]

Gentlemen. Please settle down before the thread gets slagged.

 

 

=][=  I agree entirely. Keep it civil, please. =][=