Frater Cornelius Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 What? You say the codex is lame? I don't mind :P With that being said, let's take a look ;) What am I looking for? - Easily accessible Terminators that actually deep strike turn 1 (feels more awesome than deploying by pod). Check - Low model count, lowest of low. Check. - Very choppy HQs. HQ (and now LoW as well) is my favourite slot and I want to see it done justice. Check. - Fighting an uphill battle against all odds and be the very incarnation of valour and honour? Check. Hey, the paperwork seems to check out ;) So, given all of the above, how would I approach a GK list? It can be mildly competitive, but I have the habit of appearing on tournaments with flavour lists and still ranking decently, so the primary concern is that it needs to feel right. I also have a minor concern. While I immensely enjoy the GK feel, I am lacking a bit of visual diversity, namely a mounted division. No knightly-themed army is complete without a heavy overdone of TDA and a mounted Division. Pure GK are not capable of doing it, unfortunately... I absolutely dislike to thought, but I feel that I will be forced to ally a COF detachment to get some TWC up and running. You recon it is worth adding a bunch of very choppy beat sticks alongside the usual Nemesis detachment? Or does anyone have an idea of how to fulfill my visual requirement on that part. Thanks very much for any input. And please, keep clear with any GK related negativity ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I think Space Wolves are a great compliment to a Grey Knight force. They bring several things we want, and many things we can't otherwise get in our normal list of options; HQ: - Rune Priests are incredibly good value. They're cheap enough to upgrade to TDA, they can get Mastery 2 as well, and they get Divination. Attached to either Grey Hunters or GKT's, they're a massive force multiplier Troops: - Grey Hunters do everything we want out of a Marine auxiliary. Drop podding them in means their bolter output is basically the same as storm bolters, and they bring either double melta or plasma to compliment our psycannon and incinerator. They fight reasonably well in melee, even when charged, and they're not overly expensive. Fast Attack: - TWC make a great counterpart to our Interceptors and Dreadknights. They're an incredibly dangerous assault unit your opponent cannot ignore, they shrug off Riptides and other AP3/2 with ease, and they're quite resistant to anti-infantry S6/7 spam as well. They are very self-sufficient and can be sacrificed quite efficiently. Heavy Support: - Long Fangs are everything Purgators should be. They supply up to 5 heavy weapons, the most useful being lascannon and plasma cannon. They're also not expensive, even with lascannons, so it's fairly easy to bring a pack along as an Ally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3918738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If TWC are what you want, I'd recommend taking a look at the champions of fenris supplement. You can take a wolf lord on wolf and two iron priests on wolfs for your required slots (1 HQ and 2 elites, respectively), then take a unit (or two, or three) of TWC. This way, you can take just the mounted part of the space wolf army (which, from what I gather, is all you really want), and no chaff to get your wolfs on wolfs. And, IMO, I fine the GK codex to be very strong, as long as it's supported properly. By itself, it's fairly middling. With some allies, it becomes significantly stronger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3918824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Iron Priests? Why so inefficiently? :P You buy two lone Servitors. 20 points and your mandatory slots are filled ;) I am looking for GK advice more than I am looking for SW advice here. I know my way around SW fairly well, but my GK knowledge is lacking ;) Edit: So what is it that the GK need covered? As for a pure GK force, I was actually thinking GM and possibly a Libby if points permit (I like me a badass front man HQ, so either GM or Draigo are auto-includes for me and are non-negotiable for the most part), TDA Troops, 2 NDK and fill the rest with either Interceptors, Riflemen or both. When going COF allies I would make it look like this: Wolf Lord on TW, 2+,3++ S6 AP2 I5 re-roll to hit in melee 6 TWC, 2 SS, 1 Fist Sicaran Battle Tank, Dozer, Schizm of Mars 2 solo naked servitors to cover my mandatory Elites On GK side I would take ML3 Libby with Hammer, SB and Liber 10 GKTDA with 2 Hammers and 2 Psycannons 2 NDKs with Jump, Sword, Heavy Psycannon and Psilencer 1750 points. The only issue I have with it (apart from COF servitor abuse and the use of allies) is that most Tournaments around Germany do not allow two full Detachments, only Primary + Allies. This is why I tend to minimize allies. Thought? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3918857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Rune Priests and Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are hardly chaff. Remember, there are ways to avoid melee, so TWC aren't the only thing you want from SW. Long range AP2 is also a big deal, as are MeQ squads that provide scoring and special weapons. You can fit all the best Wolf stuff in a normal Allied detachment anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3918986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Rune Priests and Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are hardly chaff. Remember, there are ways to avoid melee, so TWC aren't the only thing you want from SW. Long range AP2 is also a big deal, as are MeQ squads that provide scoring and special weapons. You can fit all the best Wolf stuff in a normal Allied detachment anyway. Oh, don't get me wrong. I will be the first one to shout out the effectiveness of those units. However, I dislike the use of PA models, especially when they are foot units and I dislike pods due to transportation. Even on regular tournaments, I only take stuff I actually like seeing on the table. But if I wanted/needed to take a deal-breaker, this would be my go-to choice: Draigo ML3 Libby, Hammer, Liber 5 TDA, Psycannon, Hammer 2x NDK, Sword, Psilencer, Psycannons, PT Tiggy 5 Scouts in LSS 3 Grav Cents, Omniscope 1600 Same would be possible with Sevrin Loth instead of Tiggy, in which case I exchange one psilencer for an Incinerator to get the 10 addition points for him. But anything that isn't cutting edge, I would like to run stuff I like, even if it means running a slightly sub-optimal list Speaking of which, in honour of me starting to use GK rules to represent my Wolves, myself and another player have planned a fluffy game. I am bringing GM, Draigo and 2x 5 Paladins against his horde-styled Daemon Factory list. We are playing a custom, hold-the-line..ish scenario where I need to hold the line against his (literally) endless Daemon hordes with my 12 models. Will be super fun and damn epic :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Take the nemesis banner. It will be epic. On topic honestly I don't feel gk and sw compliment each other that well, at least not for what you want anyway. I'm not against the idea. I think it's cool actually. GK need cheap expendable units, preferably with melta and mobility. We do elite and combat just fine. It's range presence especially the ap2 variety and cheap scoring we lack. I currently run sentinels of terra allies with a scorpius scouts and cents. It could be a bit stronger but I still have some morals lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Take the nemesis banner. It will be epic. On topic honestly I don't feel gk and sw compliment each other that well, at least not for what you want anyway. I'm not against the idea. I think it's cool actually. GK need cheap expendable units, preferably with melta and mobility. We do elite and combat just fine. It's range presence especially the ap2 variety and cheap scoring we lack. I currently run sentinels of terra allies with a scorpius scouts and cents. It could be a bit stronger but I still have some morals lol. Oh yeah, Nemesis Banner sounds tasty. I am also considering the Bone Shard, because I know for a fact, that amongst those hordes will be a unit of Khorne dogs with Heralds, possibly invisible. 2++, yumm SW and GK is tends to be my flavour build, much like my 1250pts 12 model build I will use against those daemons. I think that your Sentinels of Terra are basically a prime example of how to shore up the shortcoming of GK. Grav Cents solve plenty of problems that can not be chopped to death, which is why I opted for the Drago Cent build as my competitive build. I do have a question about NDK. Is the Psilencer worth it? It may only be S4, but 12 shots with force can easily end multi-wound models that I can not reach in melee, especially since I have very solid access to Divination. Gatling Psilencer + Misfortune works like a charm. Still, worth taking one over the Heavy Incinerator? Or maybe have 1 NDK with GP and the other with HI? Also, what is the general consensus about the Rifleman. Still worth it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 In my experience, the gatling psilencer has always been worth it. There are enough muti-wound models in the game to warrant it's inclusion. Even those armies that don't have multi-wound models will still get 12 S4 shots to the face, which really is a significant amount of dakka. And of course, forcing out a riptide turn 1 is always hilarious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 In my experience, the gatling psilencer has always been worth it. There are enough muti-wound models in the game to warrant it's inclusion. Even those armies that don't have multi-wound models will still get 12 S4 shots to the face, which really is a significant amount of dakka. And of course, forcing out a riptide turn 1 is always hilarious. I'm having to agree on the Gatling Psilencer, it is a shining star versus horde and MC alike. Just light them up with deep blue rays of soul reaving goodness, something is going to die! Still not convinced on the regular Psilencer, though; being Heavy kills it on the only platform worth taking in on (Purifiers). Psycannon should have stayed Assault, while the Psilencer went Salvo. Oh well. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 You're better off with the sw rifleman although I like las fangs better. In fact I love em. The gat is better against hard targets such as twc, wraiths etc. Even fully tooled thunder lords won't risk taking ID shots. It can be hit or miss but I've had mine vape 3-4 twc in one round and smoked most of a spawn unit along with blind fury psycho among other things. It's also better against hordes with fnp when force is active, plus the more subtle fact that the hvy incinerator puts you in charge range to use it fairly often. The hvy incin is still great against certain targets though like ork bikers and we'll most xenos. I don't consider it a horde killer from my experience. It's more a precision removal tool for if you do encounter "that unit" that just folds to it.. in which case it can net first blood too sometimes. Both help with overwatch, the gat with force in particular is scary. That said neither are mandatory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I've had a go with gatling psilencer, and oh boy do they deliver. Death Company, 'Catalyst' on Gaunt broods..and you really can overwhelm 'Tides and other battlesuits with buckets of dice (breaking the 2+ save is doable, especially as you don't care about the nova shield or the Stims). Melee is still more reliable, but it's actually worth shooting Riptides and other tough MC's with Dreadknights now. I dunno if I'll run them on all three DK's, but on at least 2 seems a good mix (heavy incinerator is so boss against infantry, no scatter unlike the psycannon blast mode, and Ignore Cover+S6+AP4 is just hell on xenos infantry especially, they have no real defence against it). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Sounds like it is a solid gun. I will start converting my first NDK soon, so I guess I will try the HPC and GP combo first. Well.. or I just magnetize the weapons ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3919992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, you only need to magnetize one ;) the heavy psycannon is standard issue on all Dreadknights Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3920029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Fair enough ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3920035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I've had a go with gatling psilencer, and oh boy do they deliver. Death Company, 'Catalyst' on Gaunt broods..and you really can overwhelm 'Tides and other battlesuits with buckets of dice (breaking the 2+ save is doable, especially as you don't care about the nova shield or the Stims). Melee is still more reliable, but it's actually worth shooting Riptides and other tough MC's with Dreadknights now. I dunno if I'll run them on all three DK's, but on at least 2 seems a good mix (heavy incinerator is so boss against infantry, no scatter unlike the psycannon blast mode, and Ignore Cover+S6+AP4 is just hell on xenos infantry especially, they have no real defence against it).OMG you think the Gatling Psilencer is good. Has hell frozen over Still not sure on the other weapon though. Str 6 template is almost as good as Str 7 paycannon, but with auto hits it may just top it to be a winner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3920189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Gatling Psilencer kills Riptides, Heavy Incinerator does not. That is why at least one of your DKs should have a Gat Psi + H Psy. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 OMG you think the Gatling Psilencer is good. Has hell frozen over Still not sure on the other weapon though. Str 6 template is almost as good as Str 7 paycannon, but with auto hits it may just top it to be a winner. I was skeptical before, mainly because I didn't think S4 would tag them enough times to matter. However, 'Force' is so clutch, even against 'Tides every save roll is nail-biting (especially as they can't just Stims a fail, which is their usual solution to failing armour saves). Psycannon doesn't do anything to Riptides, I've had two full Purifier squads unload on a single Tide and do 2 wounds. That's in Heavy mode I might add :( . Generally speaking though, I still think 'Tides and other such super-hard targets should just be ignored. Gat psilencer is much better at nuking Crisis and Broadsides, who are wounded on 4's (which matters a lot). Leave 'Tides till you're in charge range, it's dead in melee anyway, and at worst they'll kill one DK by themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Another question. I was thinking to put Hammer and Psycannon on the same model, because it is easier to protect one model than two, especially in a 5man unit. Does that make sense? Or have them on two separate models? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I see what you mean, but I personally perfect to spread out my killing ability, that way a lucky shot, unlucky roll, and sniper doesn't neuter the unit on a single roll Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I always put the different options on different models, but it doesnt really matter in TDA. For PAGK I sometimes sacrifice my psycannoner by moving him up front to take the overwatch shots so the guys with force weapons stay alive. TDA can have both melee weapons and heavy weapons, so i guess it just depends if you like putting all your eggs in one basket (if the phrase translates) whatever works for you i guess. I keep mine on separate models regardless but it might be worth having an extra ablative wound for your "specialist". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Another question. I was thinking to put Hammer and Psycannon on the same model, because it is easier to protect one model than two, especially in a 5man unit. Does that make sense? Or have them on two separate models? I would recommend the same model for exactly that reason. Ideally that should be the last model standing. The other important thing is not to tool up the serg too much. Basic 6-7th edition tenant but it applies more here IMO because he already has ID weaponry. He still won't hang with most ICs regardless. If anything a halberd or falchions is appropriate. My two favorite builds are stock + ndh/psycan and all falchions + psycan. The latter performs best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 I am a real sucker for the Sword + Hammer look. Looks just so quintessentially classic. But I can see where you come from. They already have the potential to get S6, ID or both, so bother with a hammer. Still, I like the hammer and the swords. It is slightly cheaper, so I'll stick with that. I hope I am not handicapping myself too much by doing that :S Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 No your approach is actually considered the 'competitive' build. I've just found more mileage from the falchions personally, but thats in a certain army list.. not really in general. In that list I'm not trying to make the termies even more into generalists. They're there as potential body guard and compulsory troops so I can afford the extra 10 pts and forgo the hammer since I have that base covered elsewhere much better by allies. Those 2 S8-10 attacks can be great situationally, but against the majority of qualifying targets those 2 attacks are deceptive. They won't save the unit from a beatstick IC or even really be decisive in most cases. I'd rather just keep the unit focused. If they do engage then 15-20 x s6 ID attacks will sort most things out I've found, at least as good as 8-12 attacks followed by 2-3 striking last. Even units with 2+ saves don't like to be smacked with that many potential IDs although I prefer not to engage those units at all with my TDA. Hammer on hammer and all that.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 I see. Well, I stick with Hammer and Sword. I could magnetize the hands.... actually, no. I would not magnetize the hands, as I am not yet ready to let go of my sanity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/301911-gk-worth-a-try/#findComment-3921692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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