Riggs Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Do does HI allow the VV to keep the bonuses from Red thirst on disordered charges? It says ignores penalties but I don't know how the two rules interact. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Do does HI allow the VV to keep the bonuses from Red thirst on disordered charges? It says ignores penalties but I don't know how the two rules interact. Thanks Yes it does. Losing the Red Thirst is a penalty for disordered charges which Vanguard ignore. I will put this here as a similar question (which was never answered when I asked it in the OR forum). Attach an IC to a VV. Do a disordered charge. What happens? Does the IC get the benefit of Heroic Intervention or does the whole squad pay the price of having 1 guy who doesn't have the rule or a model by model case (VV keep the benefits, the IC loses them)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggs Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Thanks for the quick reply! Well HI has no text referencing other models so it's independent of what's in the squad. So models with the rule obey it and models without the rule don't get it, is how I interpret the rule. Edit: I suck at proof reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I agree with the above, the VV benefit from it, but the rules do not carry over to the joined model. The previous incarnation specifically stated that they could not HI if they had an IC attached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 That seems to be the common opinion of people I talk to. Just wanted to make sure if I use VV and attach a IC I won't run into someonewho declares I lose Red Thirst, FC and +1 attack for the VV when I disordered charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But back then HI was a change to the ways deep strike works, not just a removal of a penalty on a disordered charge. I disagree that the rule is not conferred to a joined IC. The Vanguard squad is a unit, not a model. The unit benefits from the removal of the penalty. Joined ICs are part of the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 But back then HI was a change to the ways deep strike works, not just a removal of a penalty on a disordered charge. I disagree that the rule is not conferred to a joined IC. The Vanguard squad is a unit, not a model. The unit benefits from the removal of the penalty. Joined ICs are part of the unit. I really hope you are right, though the consensus of people I have discussed this with is the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The rule is Vanguard Veteran Squads ignore penalties for disordered charges.The unit this rule applies to is called Vanguard Veteran Squad. The models in that unit are Veterans and a Veteran Sergeant. I don't see how the rule could be applied on a per model basis. ICs are part of the unit they joined: While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.I see nothing in the character rules that would forbid Heroic Intervention for joined ICs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The rule is Vanguard Veteran Squads ignore penalties for disordered charges.The unit this rule applies to is called Vanguard Veteran Squad. The models in that unit are Veterans and a Veteran Sergeant. I don't see how the rule could be applied on a per model basis. ICs are part of the unit they joined: The independent character is not a 'vanguard veteran squad', and as such does not follow rules which specifically relate to 'vanguard veteran squads'. If what you are saying is true, then if you attach Dante to a death company unit with astorath, on the charge, Dante gets to reroll all failed to wound rolls too, because death company units get to do so . Likewise, attaching a priest to a vanguard veteran squad in a sanguine wing (whatever the hell its called, I lose track) would enable them to get a free power weapon. If you attach an independent character to the squad, does the squad gain the abilities of an independent character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The rule is Vanguard Veteran Squads ignore penalties for disordered charges.The unit this rule applies to is called Vanguard Veteran Squad. The models in that unit are Veterans and a Veteran Sergeant. I don't see how the rule could be applied on a per model basis. ICs are part of the unit they joined: The independent character is not a 'vanguard veteran squad', and as such does not follow rules which specifically relate to 'vanguard veteran squads'. If what you are saying is true, then if you attach Dante to a death company unit with astorath, on the charge, Dante gets to reroll all failed to wound rolls too, because death company units get to do so . Likewise, attaching a priest to a vanguard veteran squad in a sanguine wing (whatever the hell its called, I lose track) would enable them to get a free power weapon. If you attach an independent character to the squad, does the squad gain the abilities of an independent character? The rule belongs to Astorath, not the death company. His rule is "all Death Company Marines in his unit re-roll failed To Wound rolls in the Fight sub-phase". Dante is not a death company marine. Priest is not part of the formation. You may attach him to the squad before deployment but he doesn't belong to the formation so no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Exactly. Being in a VanguardVet unit does not make an IC a VanguardVet any more than being in a DeathCo unit makes them a DeathCo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Exactly. Being in a VanguardVet unit does not make an IC a VanguardVet any more than being in a DeathCo unit makes them a DeathCo. "Vanguard Veteran Squads ignore penalties for disordered charges." It says squads, not members or vanguard veteran marines. An independent character becomes a part of the squad when he joins it. Astorath's rule says death company marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 What GrunTeufel said. Additionally Astorath's rule applies to models (DC marines not DC squads). As a general rule the IC becomes part of the unit, not the other way around. So the IC will gain rules of the unit unless the rule itself either explicitly excludes ICs or applies to specified models (e.g. the veteran sgt. for the second part of HI). The unit will not gain the rules of an IC unless the rules say so. Also list building happens before deciding whether an IC starts the game attached to a unit or not, so even if the formation rule did not specify which models are affected, you have already paid for the power weapon on the priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroCompanyHQ Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I thinks there is a big difference between the use of the word "Squads" and "Units", as far as the rules are concerned. The use of the word "Squads" in the context of this discussion is simply as a unit name, or the title of a datasheet for a unit in the game. The rules for ICs refer to "Units" and I don't think, in this case, you can assume that 'Squads = Units' when interpreting the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 The joined IC is part of the unit, right? What is the unit is he part of called? The rules give no indication that it should be called anything other than vanguard veteran squad AFAICT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sans Mercy Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Is it possible that the VV do not lose charge boosts whilst the IC does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 That is the opinion of some people, but I cannot see it supported by the rules. The penalty is removed for the unit(Vanguard Veteran Squad), the IC (Astorath, Dante etc.) is part of the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Do does HI allow the VV to keep the bonuses from Red thirst on disordered charges? It says ignores penalties but I don't know how the two rules interact. Thanks Yes it does. Losing the Red Thirst is a penalty for disordered charges which Vanguard ignore. I will put this here as a similar question (which was never answered when I asked it in the OR forum). Attach an IC to a VV. Do a disordered charge. What happens? Does the IC get the benefit of Heroic Intervention or does the whole squad pay the price of having 1 guy who doesn't have the rule or a model by model case (VV keep the benefits, the IC loses them)? Do you have a link to that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.