Dreadnought powerfist vs. blood talons?

[ServoBadger]

In my experience only, I always get good use out of the HB sponsons unless the SR is shot down on the turn it arrives. The speed of the thing coupled with the volume of fire is worth it to me.

[dakkamasta]

I always run my stormraven with the hurricane bolters. Yes there are some games where they don't get used due to using the SR for vehicle hunting, but the times they've been used i've thanked my lucky stars that i took them. I've shot daemon princes out of the sky, decimated squads of ork boyz, even just adding that little bit extra fire support to thin down the numbers of a tough unit before i assault it with another squad. Adding the bolters turns the stormraven from a vehicle/monstrous creature killer to a 'I can shoot everything' unit.

 

As to the actual thread topic of dreadnoughts, I always go for the talons, not because i think they're that great but my dread is modelled with them and it makes it feel unique to other dreadnoughts. That and i play against nurgle CSM very often and rolling that 1 means 1 less dead plague marine, and any chance i can get to deny those bastards their FNP i will use to the fullest extent >:D

[Deschenus Maximus]

It's expensive, yes, but if you've already paid 200 pts for a flyer you might want to make it a bit better at its job.

I rarely take the hurricane sponsons, but they do make the raven into a better gunship. Only having 2 guns after the missiles are gone is a bit weak.

For those points however I'd rather take a stormwolf with all its low AP goodness.

All I want my flyers to do above anything else is to counter other flyers. In that role, sponson bolters don't really add much. Heck, they can't even hurt AV11+ flyers.

In my opinion it is too expensive.

FTFY

Yes, tac bolters arent great, but that is comparing apples and oranges. This isnt a tac squad this is 30pts to add 2 more weapons to a vehicle. A better comparison is adding sponsons to a predator - you waste the pred's potential for fire multiple weapons by not choosing to add the extra guns.

That's what I call list-building OCD. If pred sponsons made the tank less cost-efficient, it'd be silly to add them. Never mind "wasting" its ability to fire multiple weapons.

My argument is that the Stormraven just doesnt have enough firepower on it's own after you shoot the missiles (should be all gone T3). A single assault cannon and multimelta isnt too scary.

That's kinda irrelevant, really. The point is that by that point, you managed to kill other Flyers, or didn't. Once the missiles are gone, your hurricane bolters aren't really adding much to your air cover.

If they were dirt cheap (like sponson heavy bolters used to be on the IG Vendetta), then sure, go nuts; a little flexibility is good. But at 30 pts? Pass. There are a lot of other things' I'd rather do with those points instead.

Comments in red.

Haha, yes, I was going to suggest that, but I didnt want to send Desch off on one...

adding another 2 templates is awesome, as is adding 2 krak missiles to the payload. If I played on more 6x4 boards, I'd always go with this too, but I play on smaller boards with more av14.

Again, its a question of costs. 25 pts is just too much. 5-10 pts, ok, maybe.

[knife&fork]

 

All I want my flyers to do above anything else is to counter other flyers. In that role, sponson bolters don't really add much. Heck, they can't even hurt AV11+ flyers.

 

 

How about FMCs? 

 

The bolters certainly help there, where every wound counts. 

 

For strict anti AV the stormwolf does a much better job anyway, why not use it in an allied detachment with some cheap BCs with a flamer? 

Perhaps keep the SR for anti infantry/FMC and a dedicated AV killer with the SW?

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

How about FMCs? 

 

The bolters certainly help there, where every wound counts. 

 

Heh. Even within doubletap range, you'll only have 59% chance of causing a single wound to a Flyrant with hurricanes. Same thing for a non-Iron Arm Nurgle DP/Belakor jinking. I'm not sure those odds warrant 30 pts.

 

For strict anti AV the stormwolf does a much better job anyway, why not use it in an allied detachment with some cheap BCs with a flamer? 

Perhaps keep the SR for anti infantry/FMC and a dedicated AV killer with the SW?

 

At lower point levels, I don't think I'd want to have 400+ pts sitting in Reserves, especially if I don't have a reroll. At high points level, maybe, but then I'd probably just want two stormwolves rather than one of them and a raven.

 

Comments in red.

[Helias_Tancred]

Ok, so say you have a land raider crusader and inside you have a terminator squad, Captain Karlaen, your homebrew power armor captain (powersword and fury of baal plasma pistol relic), and a sanguinary priest ..... and you want to drive this force right into your enemy's face and then unload this killer battle squad.

 

Do you run the 5 man terminator squad as assault terminators with Thunder Hammers and Stormshields, or as they came in the Deathstorm boxed set with their stormbolters and powerfists/chainfists + 1 heavy flamer, and the Sergeants stormbolter and powersword?

 

What are my strategic strengths and weaknesses of each composition? This group is going to be my "hammer" force and I'm looking for tons of whoop-butt from them.

[Helias_Tancred]

I'm not sure who my opponent will always be but you can bet I will be fighting Tau part of the time. And he has tons of those silly suits, rail guns, and crap like that.

[Deschenus Maximus]

That doesn't sound like a winning proposition anyway you cut it, tbh. Too many eggs in the basket.

[Helias_Tancred]

Well I could always buy a few drop pods and transport them that way. But I will still have a stormraven carrying a 10 man bolter DC along with Cassor the Damned DC Dreadnought. Also 2 10 man assault squads, a tactical squad in a Rhino, a Fragioso, and 5 man scouts.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Pods seem like a much safer plan.

 

DC in stormraven = big no-no. That was acceptable when jump packs were 15 pts a pop, but at 3 pts each, you have NO excuse not to take them.

 

Tac squad should really have a pod too, so it can put that heavy flamer to good use as soon as it lands.

[knife&fork]

DC jump pack needs a screen (preferably AV13-14) or they will never make it into combat. 

Unless you have an AV wall to hide them behind (or spam DC units) they are very easy to take out or bring down to manageable size. 

 

Putting them in a raven isn't a terrible idea these days, with the improved jink a raven will normally survive at least one turn unless you face some serious flyer/intercept spam.

 

Both jump and transport (delivery by raven or land raider) needs threat saturation if you want them to survive and do some damage.

 

If you just want them to make noise and be a nuisance put them in a pod. No army in the game can afford to just ignore them,

10 DC in your opponents deployment zone will require some kind of response. Lots of shooting, a counter charge, or maybe just moving away. Either way there are 10 fearless bodies with FnP and a nasty charge that need to be dealt with. 

 

When run as  a disruption unit spend as little as possible on them because they are expendable. Only buy enough wargear to make them a serious threat, at least one fist or two power axes. Single melta pistol if you have the points. In a podded unit it's unlikely to see use, but just the fact that there's a melta weapon present will often change the perceived threat level. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

DC jump pack needs a screen (preferably AV13-14) or they will never make it into combat. 

Unless you have an AV wall to hide them behind (or spam DC units) they are very easy to take out or bring down to manageable size. 

 

Key words bolded. Having a single DC unit and expecting it to do great things is silly. But that's true of almost every unit in the game.

 

Putting them in a raven isn't a terrible idea these days, with the improved jink a raven will normally survive at least one turn unless you face some serious flyer/intercept spam.

 

Its not a terrible idea until you do run into an army that can handle Flyers and then you're out 400+ pts.

 

[knife&fork]

'handle flyers', and killing a SR in a single turn (without dedicating an disproportionate amount of firepower) is very different things. Few builds are capable of doing it without giving up shooting on pretty much everything else high T or AV for a turn. If you frequently play against intercept/flyer spam (think necrons) then any flyer you can bring as a SM player is pointless anyway.  And Necrons will very likely cease to be a problem in a few weeks....

 

Counting on one turn of shooting and then one turn in hover, likely snapshooting, isn't unrealistic life expectancy for a storm raven. You'll have one or two turns to concentrate on AA/intercept units before your flyer(s) even shows up. And when they do arrive your opponent should be knee deep in trouble from other sources.

 

On the other hand it's far more likely to face a list that can easily wipe out jump units. 

Spreading out properly, even when possible and feasible, means having a huuuuge footprint. With 30 infantry models, deployed aggressively but minimizing blast damage. you'll cover pretty much your entire deployment zone. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

If I knew my opponent had 10 DC in that Raven, there's a fair chance I'm going to make knocking out of the sky a pretty big priority because 1) that pretty much takes out 400 pts+ out of your list in one go and 2) if I don't, those 10 DC guys are going to be bringing the hurt the next turn.

 

Now, you have a point that there are more units that can kill Jumpers than there are that can kill Flyers, but for the points I would have spent on the Raven, I can get another 8 jump DC and some change. And with those I don't run the risk of getting screwed over by bad Reserve rolls or a lucky lascannon hit running hot dice.

[knife&fork]

In a 2k list I'd consider that acceptable under normal circumstances. Not so if you are playing 1750 or below, then 400+ is indeed too much. 

 

It's true that single hot rolls can mess up a flyer, but on the other hand there's plenty more that can go wrong when on foot. Botched run moves or terrain checks, lucky blasts, unfavorable deployment (particularly if deploying first) and things like that are much less of an issue when deploying via raven. 

 

The best of course is to have several deployment options depending on terrain, opponent and mission. But the jump packs kinda forces you to commit.... 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Well technicaly, you could always decide to Deep Strike with JP DC. Usualy that's a pretty bad idea but sometimes its not.