Mobile Cover/Viable Mech

[Moonstalker]

So, in 40k Marine players can often be seen moving their Rhinos around sideways and using them as mobile LoS blockers and charge deniers.  That hasn't really happened in 30k because... well, I think we like our vehicles to travel in the same direction as their tracks are pointing, yeah?

 

Anyway, the point is that in 40k players often use their tac squads dismounted from their Rhinos, but I don't think I've ever seen a list for 30k that plans on doing that.  I think the assumption has always been, we should put the marines in the rhino for the mobility, but I think there's another way that we haven't considered.

 

My thought is, how about a squad fit like:

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad 200

-10 Members, Vexilla, 2 Plasma Guns, 2 Power Swords, Sergeant with artificer armor, power axe

-Furious Charge

-Rhino

315

 

Apothecary

45

 

The Apothecary is attached to the marines and they are all deployed on the table, with the Rhino in front to provide an LoS blocker.  You can do the usual shenanigans with moving up the table, uncovering your special weapons by moving the Rhino to the side, firing and then Flat Outing the Rhino back in front of the squad during your shooting phase.  Get up the table and get the charge off, where you can put the Vet Squad's high attacks + Furious Charge + power swords to good use.  Deny good opportunities for your opponent to use Fury of the Legion by using the Rhino to block LoS while you whittle their numbers down to a manageable size.  ideally, by the time the rhino is dead you're in charge range and can get the squad safely into melee, where they won't get shot up.

 

Upsides:

-2 Special Weapons

-No waiting to charge after disembarking

-Apothecary/FNP

 

Downsides:

-Dat point cost

 

Thoughts?

[Pavel Araghast]

Hi there Kitwulfen. Can only sergeant in vet squad take meltabombs? I thought you have to equip whole squad.

[Moonstalker]

Hi there Kitwulfen. Can only sergeant in vet squad take meltabombs? I thought you have to equip whole squad.

 

Good catch.  I was doing point costs from memory, and assumed cost/avail was the same as for Tac squad sergeants.

[Theredknight]

This could be a tactic for my palatine blades..taking them with jump packs hurt when they die, but if I use a stock rhino..they only need to avoid fire for 1 turn at least, generally I'm on for a t2 charge if I get up that far..hmm food for thought definitely

[Hesh Kadesh]

Seems strange that some units only need the Sergeant to take a Meltabomb, but still give the option for the rest of the squad, but require the entire squad to take them for vets.

[depthcharge12]

At first I thought, well there's a metric gak ton of S6 and S7 weapons in 30k like auto cannons and such that would eat up a rhino, but then I thought, who would waste 10 auto cannon shots or 12 kheres shots on a rhino?

 

I think that as long as you spam rhinos or have other, larger AV threats (knowing you kitwulfen, I'd say you you have a Sicaran or three in your list :P) you should be golden with the tactic.

 

And while I love plasma guns, it might not be too sensible to use them in this manner as they can't be shot before a charge - which is what you're planning to do.

 

First I'd like to ask, what will your list look like and at what points total you'll be at?

 

Second I'd ask, what are you likely facing? Other 30k players or 40k?

 

Thirdly, I'd ask, why not [Zoidberg] volkite chargers if you're assaulting and moving up or melta guns as quite a few people don't take armored ceramite? Against things like Kheresnaughts or even an isolated tank, the melta would be invaluable at the cost of those bolter shots (which, let's be honest, 30k lists have plenty of).

[Moonstalker]

This is actually more of a theoretical thought exercise, for other people's benefit.  I had enough of playing with metal boxes by growing up in the hobby playing Space Wolves.  So, no specific list this is built around or any specific situation I would use it in - but rather, just trying to hammer out a way to actually use Rhinos in 30k without it being a waste.

 

I was just kinda throwing something together for their armament..  Plasma guns may or may not be right, maybe melta is better, maybe it's better to go with more power weapons and no specials, or maybe it needs double missile launchers and no melee for playing peekaboom with.  I have a lot of trouble ever justifying the pistol or rifle volkites, just cause their str/ap/shots aren't better enough than a bolter to justify their price.

 

You're right that this definitely should be part of an overall armor-heavy strategy, though.  I'd thought some sort of PotL build with vet squads walking behind their Rhinos, whatever other armor in support - maybe do a couple of these for flankers/objective holders, and go for a Spartan + terminators as the center punch?  Plus a couple of Sicarans in the back.  Either way, the Rhinos don't have to actually live for very long.  And even when they die, they are quite likely to remain on the field as some handy LoS blocking terrain.  Use early movement and smoke to get a good board position in the beginning, and then distraction rhinofex.  If the enemy shoots it with autocannons, then those are autocannons that aren't hitting more important targets.  Your vet squad doesn't really care, cause it's on foot with its attached apothecary for survivability anyway.

 

(And I actually have zero Sicarans in my list.  They're wonderful, but they don't fit my theme.  I bring two AC/LC Predators and a Scorpius, though)

[Hesh Kadesh]

The problem with Rhino's is that they're not assault transports. Leaving them to being glorified shuttles and giving away a free KP or more. Without access to double Special Weapons, Veterans in Rhinos are a pair of Sniper Bolters with 12" range when moving - not brilliant, honestly.

 

Volkites, I've never really been sure of, but for a Volkite to make it's points back, it only ever needs to kill one Tactical as a result of the Deflagrate per battle. Anything else is just a plus. However, the balance comes when is it worth killing that one marine (or 20 marines, if you take 20 Volkites in an army such as on Special Weapon Squads) when that can be put towards something else, like a Sicaran, who can not only likely kill those 20 marines, but also have a much more flexible mandate and range of potential targets if it comes to that.

 

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that Anvillus Drop Pods are actually worth their salt and that it isn't as bad as it initially seems - very few people take melta with Armoured Ceramite, and Heavy Weapon Squads, Interceptor or no, are about the worst Heavy Support choice after the standard Whirlwind in the Heresy list, meaning that you're pretty safe from Augury Scanners Interceptor rule. Sure, it means you can get tanked in T1 if they so choose, but that means your supporting units aren't getting shot at.

 

Of course, only Sons of Horus get particular access to Anvillus Dreads for that fact, but even standard legions limited to 3 can make decent use of it forcing enemy units to split their fire.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

The problem with Rhino's is that they're not assault transports. Leaving them to being glorified shuttles and giving away a free KP or more. Without access to double Special Weapons, Veterans in Rhinos are a pair of Sniper Bolters with 12" range when moving - not brilliant, honestly.

 

Hesh!  You wound me so!  Dost thou only skimmest mine OP?

 

The Vet squad I specced out is 11 guys.  It can't embark the Rhino, but can still take one.  The idea is to use it as moving cover for a mid-close range Vet squad.  Just trying to hammer out some kind of idea for making better use of these underutilized units.

[depthcharge12]

h

The problem with Rhino's is that they're not assault transports. Leaving them to being glorified shuttles and giving away a free KP or more. Without access to double Special Weapons, Veterans in Rhinos are a pair of Sniper Bolters with 12" range when moving - not brilliant, honestly.

 

Volkites, I've never really been sure of, but for a Volkite to make it's points back, it only ever needs to kill one Tactical as a result of the Deflagrate per battle. Anything else is just a plus. However, the balance comes when is it worth killing that one marine (or 20 marines, if you take 20 Volkites in an army such as on Special Weapon Squads) when that can be put towards something else, like a Sicaran, who can not only likely kill those 20 marines, but also have a much more flexible mandate and range of potential targets if it comes to that.

 

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that Anvillus Drop Pods are actually worth their salt and that it isn't as bad as it initially seems - very few people take melta with Armoured Ceramite, and Heavy Weapon Squads, Interceptor or no, are about the worst Heavy Support choice after the standard Whirlwind in the Heresy list, meaning that you're pretty safe from Augury Scanners Interceptor rule. Sure, it means you can get tanked in T1 if they so choose, but that means your supporting units aren't getting shot at.

 

Of course, only Sons of Horus get particular access to Anvillus Dreads for that fact, but even standard legions limited to 3 can make decent use of it forcing enemy units to split their fire.

Yeah I didn't think rhinos give kill points anymore, that system is a bit dated. Most people play for objectives now.

 

Even as a first blood objective, you've got to ask yourself again hesh, who's going to waste the shots on a rhino? Are you going to dump 12 Kheres shots or a Sicaran into a rhino? Highly unlikely, and if you do, any opponent would punish you for wasting the shots, not to mention the ability to drop smoke too for a cover save.

 

The Anvilus pods are nice for that alpha strike, but then they sit useless. Rhinos can provide a moving LoS blocker and cover. Plus, drop pods don't quite play to legion strengths. Most of the time, your whole army must use it, so that means no Sicarans, no Scorpii, no spartan, and no squads over 10.

 

Enough people take MoS in their list to confer deep strike interception or take augury scanners on the ubiquitous apothecary hiding in a 20 man blob.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Eh, old age getting too me. Kill Points, Victory Points, whatever. As to who's going to dump 12 Kheres shots into it, me, if it ensures I get that VP. 1VP is a lot. Let's face it, there aren't many other targets turn 1 for a Kheres either.

 

Anvillus pods don't sit useless. They're flyers, with 12 Armour and 3HP that can pick up and transport troops, and grab those late game objectives. And they're Fast Attack, so that at worst means no Primaris Lightning, Jetbikes or Outriders, and neither of those are all that if I'm honest. The Primaris is essentially monobuild anti-armour which you can account for elsewhere in your list, Outriders are an alternative alpha strike plasma but miss out on all the pros that make bikes good in 40K (i.e not scoring being the major one), while JSJ is okay, but it's a 35pt Heavy Bolter/45pt mm, regardless of how you dress it up.

 

20 Man Blob with Boltguns firing at an AV12 target? Ace.

[depthcharge12]

Eh, old age getting too me. Kill Points, Victory Points, whatever. As to who's going to dump 12 Kheres shots into it, me, if it ensures I get that VP. 1VP is a lot. Let's face it, there aren't many other targets turn 1 for a Kheres either.

 

Anvillus pods don't sit useless. They're flyers, with 12 Armour and 3HP that can pick up and transport troops, and grab those late game objectives. And they're Fast Attack, so that at worst means no Primaris Lightning, Jetbikes or Outriders, and neither of those are all that if I'm honest. The Primaris is essentially monobuild anti-armour which you can account for elsewhere in your list, Outriders are an alternative alpha strike plasma but miss out on all the pros that make bikes good in 40K (i.e not scoring being the major one), while JSJ is okay, but it's a 35pt Heavy Bolter/45pt mm, regardless of how you dress it up.

 

20 Man Blob with Boltguns firing at an AV12 target? Ace.

Ah, I forgot that the Anvillus were the movey ones like the Kharybidis.

 

Though pointing a Kheres at an Anvillus when it comes on will result in more deaths than popping the rhino - which to an extant has already used it's purpose at that point. Falling from the sky by getting your pod shot down will kill more legionaries rather than just using a rhino as a screen.

 

Although, Kitwulfen, you may just want to invest in an IC with a void harness to go with the unit. Maybe just have a footslogging unit with the Sniper USR and two heavy bolters/plasma guns and attach a MoS with a void harness. He'll give the +1 BS for use up the field and can use his void shield to protect the unit from small arms fire.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Kheres comes down Turn 1. Pair of Kheres shoot at it with Interceptor - gives 11-12 hits, and it still needs 6's to do any damage to it, so that's 1-2 HP of damage, which can be jinked without complaint because the Anvillus has no weapons to worry about Snap Firing. It cannot cause an explodes because AP4.

 

Even if it is destroyed, because of how Deep Strike works, it deep Strikes in Hover mode, which means it doesn't crash and burn, which means it follows the rules for Wrecked (other than zooming flyers) which forces an emergency disembarkation and a pinning test. No real damage done, while even if it takes any of the other results, a Ld test on Ld9 means they don't need to Snap Fire either.

 

If you want a CC army, use with Night Lords for Night Fighting so that it has a 3+ Jink.

 

And no, don't throw good points after bad. 125pts on top of the 360pts - WHAT? You mean for the price of a Primarch/Just shy of a Super Heavy I can just about be okay with my Sniper Boltguns?