To go first or not?

[stephane4985]

Hi all, I want to have your opinion on this.

 

My main army is Tyranid and I play maybe 20% of my game with GK. So not many experience with GK 7th edition.

 

I have good success with my nid and I usually go second with them, which usually play in my favor.

 

Now with GK, I can't really decide. 

 

I plan on using the NSF detachment consisting of draigo, libby, 15 terminators, 10 interceptor, a stormraven, a DK and comm relay (aegis) (1750 pts).

 

I know that being first, I will be able to do some damage even before the other one start doing anything and since the majority willbe deepstrike, except for the stormraven and the unit using the relay (DK or interceptors). Going second would enable me to put them on the table so they can reach the most primary target depending on his deployment. But I would have to survive first turn shooting from SW.

 

Then there is the late objective taking... which is nothing to neglect ( Usually we play the first maelstrom mission, cleanse and control)

 

So for peoples using the NSF detachment, what do you ussually do? Go second or first?

[Frater Cornelius]

If you face an alpha strike list that can blow you in one turn (drop pod Centurions come to mind), then I would reserve as much as possible and go second. He come down in pods and does nothing, I come down second and blow him up.

If I am facing a gun-line, I go first do inflict maximum damage up front.

 

So it really depends, but the enemy alpha strike potential and pods are a major factor when deciding. Depends on too many factors to give a precise answer though.

[Spaz431]

With maelstrom missions it matters not which part of the turn you have, due to the cards dictating what must be done per turn, minus first blood and line break. Play to the mission. And I suggest trying the other missions also. Playing only one can become redundant. Mission six makes sense as battles progress.

If you face an alpha strike list that can blow you in one turn (drop pod Centurions come to mind), then I would reserve as much as possible and go second. He come down in pods and does nothing, I come down second and blow him up.

If I am facing a gun-line, I go first do inflict maximum damage up front.

 

So it really depends, but the enemy alpha strike potential and pods are a major factor when deciding. Depends on too many factors to give a precise answer though.

Centurions cannot embark in pods, unless your opponent is using some lousy battle brothers ruling.

[stephane4985]

We play that mission because the guy I play with is not familiar with the rules, so it is easier for him. Otherwise, with others, we roll the mission.

 

So beside alpha strike, it is really a game by game decision if I understand. 

 

My concern is the unit starting on the board (interceptors or DK), you wnat them to be able to reach a good target, and placing them without knowing the other placement is a risk and could end up having your army split in 2. And there is also the risk of having the comms relay squad be squish on the first turn and end up not being able to use it.

 

If you reserve as much as possible because you face an alpha strike, you could end up with a comm relay that is unusable....

[Frater Cornelius]

With maelstrom missions it matters not which part of the turn you have, due to the cards dictating what must be done per turn, minus first blood and line break. Play to the mission. And I suggest trying the other missions also. Playing only one can become redundant. Mission six makes sense as battles progress.

If you face an alpha strike list that can blow you in one turn (drop pod Centurions come to mind), then I would reserve as much as possible and go second. He come down in pods and does nothing, I come down second and blow him up.

If I am facing a gun-line, I go first do inflict maximum damage up front.

 

So it really depends, but the enemy alpha strike potential and pods are a major factor when deciding. Depends on too many factors to give a precise answer though.

Centurions cannot embark in pods, unless your opponent is using some lousy battle brothers ruling.

 

 

Yes, they can. They can embark in Fast Attack pods from SW and BA. They are not lousy, they are official rules and you will find that plenty of people do it. If you do not want to, then it is up to you, but do not expect others to follow your logic.

[Brom MKIV]

Ya podded cents is legit..

 

On topic, as Immersturm says it depends. Can they threaten your units significantly from the start? Can you threaten theirs? This decision is one that I've seen take over 30 minutes to decide before. Because its that important. Optimally you build your list with both in mind. That is a weakness to full deep strike lists both podded and non. Its one of the few points of inflexibility such lists tend to have, and why castling is a valid counter strategy.

 

I personally value first blood very high, in fact the highest priority usually. This has been one of the more frustrating aspects of GKs to me honestly because for all our mobility/pseudo mobility we lack strong alpha strike potential. All things being equal which we must assume and FB wins the day. It also forces defensive minded armies out of their comfort zone into a more aggressive stance which they aren't always capable of recovering from.

 

In a nutshell theres much to think about. 

[Adeptus]

I almost always go second. It means my opponent has to move without knowing where my army will be, it means he wastes any first-turn abilities he might have (like drop pod assaults or night fighting or any of that nonsense) and it means his reserves are likely to come on before mine (in the case of fliers, you really want to bring them on the table second, not first) and it means you have the last turn to yourself to try and grab/contest objectives.

 

The only downside is that sometimes your opponent will scatter his units across the table, making it much harder to safely deepstrike your terminators.

 

EDIT: I should note that I play a full-reserve NSF list. I'll often put a Dreadknight on the table to hide behind terrain and activate the comms relay, but everyone else starts in reserve, giving my opponent practically nothing to shoot at.

 

On an unrelated note, allying in Drop Pods is a cheap, anti-thematic tactic and I reserve the right to groan, roll my eyes and generally sneer at people who employ it. I mean, I don't mind it for the lesser Marines, since really it's only a technicallity. The new 'vanilla' marine codex will almost certainly have drop pods as fast attack choices, but for us Grey Knights it's a big no no, IMO.

[Frater Cornelius]

Real men deep strike ;)

[Quozzo]

If I win the roll then I opt to go second. But if I lose then I try to seize the initiative, just for the psychological factor

If you go second with NDKs or other units on the board then they may be shot off. If the opponent has deepstriking units then the NDKs will be the only target. In that scenario then I will always try to go first, but it really depends on your opponents ability to pre-alpha strike your alpha strike.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I would say it depends on the mission and army matchup. 

 

If you need to take out a specific unit with shooting Turn 1 (artillery, a long-range shooty unit, a tank, an MC etc), going first is preferable. You get your punch in first, and cripple them before they can strike. 

 

If your opponent has Turn 1 abilities they'd like to leverage against your deployment, go second. Deploying Dreadknights and Interceptors on table while the rest Deepstrikes is fine. Hide the Comms Array and your guys, ensure enough is close by that even an amazing Turn 1 shooting phase won't cripple your ground force. It's actually fairly difficult to kill Dreadknights Turn 1, you need a lot of AP2 and preferably S7+ at that. 

[jeffersonian000]

I've gone from 100% reserved to 100% on the table over the course of the last 3 editions, and now prefer going first with heavy use of Shunt and Gate. If I can't go first, I'll Null Deploy and roll to seize. Either way, I'm denying my opponent the ability to shoot first. If I reserve any units, it's to abuse Rites for objective grabs or when taking a Raven.

 

For me, Deep Strike is a vehicle that my opponents can't kill, with infinite range and armored in randomness. And I hate randomness. Winning = removing as much randomness as you can, unless randomness is your armor. Randomness is our armor. I choose to use our randomness as a tool to achieve disruption in my opponent's decision cycle, which means limiting as much randomness as I can, and using what's left with delebrate care.

 

Oh! In tournaments, after I draw First Blood, I tell my opponent "Mission complete, daemonic infestation prevented. Beginning purge." I'll even join my opponent on their side of the table, since my guys are all over there, too. Dress nice, smell good, flirt, smile, win.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

For me, Deep Strike is a vehicle that my opponents can't kill, with infinite range and armored in randomness. And I hate randomness. Winning = removing as much randomness as you can, unless randomness is your armor. Randomness is our armor. I choose to use our randomness as a tool to achieve disruption in my opponent's decision cycle, which means limiting as much randomness as I can, and using what's left with delebrate care.

 

You need to invest in a Comms Array. It's 70 points, but it pretty much guarantees 'Rites' will pay off Turn 1. 

 

'Gate' requires either Draigo or lucking out with a Sanctic Liber Librarian. Neither really appeals to me, especially considering Draigo is a completely different beast when he's rolling with allied Grav-Cents. Shunt is fine on Dreadknights, but I've found Interceptors really lackluster. They alpha strike well, but melt under pressure (still only MeQ). 

 

I don't think we function without building around 'Rites'. Our core is Terminators, so it's hard to avoid anyway. Plus, Turn 1 psycannon into rear or even side armour on vehicles is serious business. Not to mention the scare factor of 'oh no 20 Terminators are in my lines, eating my manz. Do I shoot them or the Dreadknights?'. 

[jeffersonian000]

I run a Draigo-Shunt-Bomb list, with Draigo, Liber Libby, GKT, GKIS, and NDK in an NSF, with the ocassional Knight Errant and/or Stormraven. No buildings, though. All start on the table, unless reserving makes sense.

 

SJ

[Quozzo]

I prefer to deepstrike as it saves wasting a turn getting up in their face.

 

One advantage of going second with null deployment is that your opponent misses a turn. Doesn't feel like it at turn 1, but come turn 5 he'll be regretting going first and shooting only 4 times.

[Frater Cornelius]

He only misses a turn of shooting. He can still go for objectives.

[Quozzo]

He only misses a turn of shooting. He can still go for objectives.

Not come your (extra) shooting phase

[Frater Cornelius]

He only misses a turn of shooting. He can still go for objectives.

Not come your (extra) shooting phase

Aye, the only scenario where it matters is when you are playing this mission where you get 6 objectives in turn 1, because he can get the lead by a big margin with a mobile army.

[jeffersonian000]

I prefer to deepstrike as it saves wasting a turn getting up in their face.

 

One advantage of going second with null deployment is that your opponent misses a turn. Doesn't feel like it at turn 1, but come turn 5 he'll be regretting going first and shooting only 4 times.

With Shunt and Gate, I'm in my opponent's face turn 1. If I'm Deep Striking, it's to take objectives, not to get into anyone's face.

 

SJ