Rasclomalum Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 A point of contention for me is how the marks limit the choices you make. It is an inescapable fact that no one in their right mind would run MoS Obliterators, MoK Havocs or MoT Marines. It just doesn't happen. This is, I think, part of the reason why this Codex and the ones before it have been Codex: Nurgle, because MoN is currently the only mark providing a universal benefit. MoK and MoS are largely irrelevant outside of the assault phase and Slaanesh apparently hates you if you like unwieldy weapons, MoT only sort of works for units with a natural invulnerable save and even then it is usually too expensive (bringing MoT Warp Talons must be the list-building equivalent of flagellation). Under a ruleset which encourages us to forge the narrative, this gets strange. Are there really no Khornate havocs drawing blood for the blood god with heavy bolters, no Tzeentchian bikers outmanouvering and outsmarting their prey? See, marks are just not upgrades, they are allegiances and thus shouldn't limit us so. Let's see if we can make them more universally applicable, shall we? Mark of Slaanesh: Fearless. A warrior touched by the Dark Prince lives for the thrills of experience, and will happily face terrors lesser warriors would run away from. Mark of Khorne: Preferred Enemy. A warrior touched by the Blood God fights with terrible martial skill and will collect skulls for Khorne by any means necessary. Mark of Tzeentch: Feel No Pain: A warrior touched by the Great Changer is granted visions and premonitions, and will effortlessly step out of harm's way as if guided by some unseen hand. Mark of Nurgle: Could honestly stay the way it is. Though Fantasy's take on it would work too (-1 BS and WS for attackers due to the flies and miasma of putrefaction). Yeah, so obviously Chaos Lords and Dark Apostles wouldn't gain anything from MoS, but that could be solved with an addendum to the mark where units and models who are already Fearless gain a secondary benefit (or it could just be free, though that thought is grating). Anyway, if marks worked somewhere along these lines it seems to me every unit in the Codex could benefit from every mark. Say you want a squad of havocs – do you take MoS for Fearless and reliability, MoK for sheer killing power, MoT for added survivability against S7 or less or MoN for... yeah, I guess the last two need more work. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pariah Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Would be awesome... but one would need to account the icons... and that is weird unless you have a set of icons you choose from(like magic standards in WFB) well i know for R&H you get something different Slaanesh: Fleet Khorne: re-roll to wound on first round of combat (you can couple with re-roll to hit) Tzeench: snap shot at BS2... weird how a covenant of, is better than the mark... and Nurgle is a 6+ FnP.... But, back to the matter at hand, I like your ideas but the cost may need to go up.. but what i would like to see is more variety in the HQ selection, like a undivided or unaligned warlord may not be able to get his hands on that many marked units. Have it so you have a limit of, say, 0-2 units that can take a mark or be dedicated, and that those units with opposing marks shouldn't be put close together (maybe one eye open?). On the flip side a Marked warlord has no limit with the amount units with the same mark but cannot take units with opposing marks, and have a limit on other marks (0-1?) and a limit on unmarked (0-3?) But why stop there, go SM and give chapter (legion) tactics, where the necessary legion (such as death guard) have to take marks and/or take cult marines as troops... but what about the others?... perhaps Black legion has more cult units but doesn't have some of the shiner stuff the others may get?... but what about renegade chapters, something like devotions?... Gah, too many ideas, and too many possibilities... damn you sir! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3924999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasclomalum Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 But, back to the matter at hand, I like your ideas but the cost may need to go up.. Not necessarily. MoS is currently 2 points for a Chaos Space Marine, and the guy is 13 points by himself. My proposal is that MoS confers Fearless, which is arguably worse than ATSKNF and the loyalists get that for a mere point, by comparison. So MoS could be bought for 1 point/model in the case of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, the Preferred Enemy for the Khornates would likely be costlier than the present mark, but that's how balancing works. Universally applicable marks, something for the Undivided fellows and Legion Tactics and I'd be happy too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pariah Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 But, back to the matter at hand, I like your ideas but the cost may need to go up.. Not necessarily. MoS is currently 2 points for a Chaos Space Marine, and the guy is 13 points by himself. My proposal is that MoS confers Fearless, which is arguably worse than ATSKNF and the loyalists get that for a mere point, by comparison. So MoS could be bought for 1 point/model in the case of Chaos Space Marines. Of course, the Preferred Enemy for the Khornates would likely be costlier than the present mark, but that's how balancing works. Universally applicable marks, something for the Undivided fellows and Legion Tactics and I'd be happy too. you have a point, sir. although i really want to get my hands on grav weapons... and centurions-esk oblits and mutilators that actually work would be nice, as well as warp talons... In fact... something to give marines Daemon rule but just under possessed... or rather more points than, because Malefic Daemonology is made for CSM but just out of reach.. but we have a few months to wait, after the necron codex, maybe... there is soo much that the community will want with the new codex, as the diverse nature of chaos is a double edged sword after all... We have to wait and see but i'm clinging to IA:13 in the mean time... they can't take my fodder cultists away from me... but 7th will make or break chaos... and saying, i don't regret moving from tau to chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Marks certainly need a rethink, currently they are mostly dilutions of previous incarnations. There was a period where they did something, and when combined with a combination of daemonic gifts and veteran skills any unit could be given a specific role, now they are a hangover as in isolation they don't provide useful enough benefits to be considered comparable. If used purely for fluff you may as well just model them with the dedications and not take the marks. It's amazing how many boots on the ground not using the marks provides and weight of dice is more powerful than changing the difficulty. As standalone upgrades they need to be less powerful and more versatile. The mark of tzeentch could be one reroll per turn, per model with the mark a unit of ten could then reroll three shooting attacks two wounds and five armour saves whereas a character could only use one, keeps it from being too expensive but is handy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You could make a slight argument for MOK Havoks, because it gives counter attack (instead of a solid +1 attack all the time...) and it's a good defensive ability to have.I always did like those old, old old Pre Codex release rumors about the Dark Apostles unlocking and making better the various marks (and also being 0-3). But oh well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaanbull Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Some good ideas and points in here. What I would'be liked from our marking system is just differing benefits, looking through my old beasts of chaos army books, spawn have four fun and varied benefits(compared to regiments, heroes, shaggoths, lords, minotaurs), ranging from a tzeentch breath attack, to poisoned Nurgle attacks, +1S for khorne and 3D6 movement on a slaanesh marked spawn. Wouldn't be hard to give the obliterator access to a blastmaster instead of the more or less useless +1I. Or give khorne spawn something that isn't redundant. I've seen someone here on the chaos forums wish listing a system like the daemon codex where there's levels of devotion, that would be awesome, could hopefully fix the 'no cult units for bikers, termites etc', and would let people make a wide range of choices in their army, unless Nurgle greater devotion is eternal warrior, +1W, +1T and FNP. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Personally, I'd like to see more unit specific benefits to marks. Havocs for example: MoK: Flamers have Shred. Autocannons generate 1 extra shot on To Hit rolls of 6. MoS: Blastmaster for X points. Split fire for X points. MoN: Slow and Purposeful. Missile Launchers with Chem Missiles (Rending/Gets Hot) MoT: To Hit rolls of 6 benefit from 1 of the following. Armourbane, Fleshbane, Ignores Cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Havocs with 4x Blastmasters are my wet dream... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3925845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 All very what if unfortunately, unlike RPG's where you can tinker with the rules to your hearts content, WH40k doesn't lend itself very well to rules improvements, due to the competitive nature of the game. Still, like the ideas and hope that GW's writers are thinking along similar lines when the new codex arrives (please be March, please be March!!!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3926029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiskrtapps Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 MoK: RendingMoS: Sonic Weapons access, Blind Melee WeaponsMoN: +1 T, FnPMoT: +1 to Warp Charge Pool Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302214-if-marks-were-more-universally-applicable/#findComment-3926078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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