Corrupted Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Was talking tactics with a buddy yesterday and got on to the landspeeder vengeance the conversation developed like this: What if the vengeance had a twin-link executioner plasma cannon. That would be broken if they didn't raise the points a whole lot. Really, at 140 points? Ok maybe 140 points is reasonable, but people would just spam them. Would you really drop 420 points on three speeders, you could have 5 typhoons in one squad for 375. Ok maybe not, but they still might be a bit too good. With AV 10 and 2 HP, even with an executioner plasma cannon, would you really field one? You know, probably not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 i think a better idea would be to grant land speeder squadrons look out sir letting other vehilces take the hit for other vehicles in the squadron. and then making it an upgrade for a squadron. now you can buy two additional speeders and now u have an av10 vehicle with a potential 6 hull points which is a heck of a lot better than before. another idea would be to simply reduce its price point, 100 points sounds a lot more reasonable for the lsv in its current form and realistically it wouldnt be that overpowered to have the LoS rule because of the way penetrations work. as long as you elected to LoS prior to any penetration chart rolls to make it risky, you could save your entire squadron, but you could cause one to explode killing one anyway :P this also isnt that bad because the max squadron would then be 4 which still isnt that big of a squadron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
durdle-durdle Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 i think a better idea would be to grant land speeder squadrons look out sir letting other vehilces take the hit for other vehicles in the squadron. and then making it an upgrade for a squadron. now you can buy two additional speeders and now u have an av10 vehicle with a potential 6 hull points which is a heck of a lot better than before. another idea would be to simply reduce its price point, 100 points sounds a lot more reasonable for the lsv in its current form and realistically it wouldnt be that overpowered to have the LoS rule because of the way penetrations work. as long as you elected to LoS prior to any penetration chart rolls to make it risky, you could save your entire squadron, but you could cause one to explode killing one anyway this also isnt that bad because the max squadron would then be 4 which still isnt that big of a squadron. I think even at 100 points, I still wouldn't take it as anything more than a suicide deep strike template. 24" range on an av10 2 hp vehicle is just not enough. If the range is increased, the av is increased (even to just 11), or more HP, i'd be fine with it. As it is now, I only ever take typhoon landspeeders (and sit at 36-48 inches from the enemy) or suicide multi melta speeders. At 100 points with the ability to put it in a squadron, however, I think would be worth it. on its own, even at 100 points, it's still very "meh" IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 GW is costs the Plasma battery at 90pts, I often complained a lot about costing in this codex but this one takes the cake (sorry Nephilim, you're still more useful than the LSV). The regular landspeeder chassis costs 50. The 7th change to jink made it even less useful. If it had twin-linked it would be slightly more approachable but it would still need something else for me to take it (maybe AV11, or some other special rule), I'll still take a vindicator any day of the week over the LSV. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 as i always says: the LSV is a LS that has the stas of 1 LS (2HP and 2 weapons) but costs like two in addiction the LSV cannot be bought in squadrons and it can overheat itself to death the only use for the LSV kit is to build the still overcosted but much more useful DS considering that the DS lost a good mount of its effectivenss due to the new jink rules you can clearly judge how much useless the LSV is IMHO the LSV is the most useless unit in DA codex sadly cause i love the model Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I still don't even own one...not even for fun...its that awful. I like the model, but I can't bring myself to buy one purely to sit on my shelf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Ha-ha!! I hate both the model and the rules but still field mine on occasion just for the lolz. (Mine being based on the Javelin chassis does look much better imho ;) ) If you gave it rules and points similar to the IA2 Relic javelin armed with a twin linked lascannon and swapped in a TL Plasma cannon for five points less you'd be about right if you ask me. Another option; you could make the TL/PC heavy 2 or the same as the executioner plasma cannon for +5 points or even retain the large blast option for +ten points and still keep it about right. As it stands the LSV is utter rubbish for it's cost. Let's be positive, there are better ways to spend your points in our dex :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Ha-ha!! I hate both the model and the rules but still field mine on occasion just for the lolz. (Mine being based on the Javelin chassis does look much better imho ) If you gave it rules and points similar to the IA2 Relic javelin armed with a twin linked lascannon and swapped in a TL Plasma cannon for five points less you'd be about right if you ask me. Another option; you could make the TL/PC heavy 2 or the same as the executioner plasma cannon for +5 points or even retain the large blast option for +ten points and still keep it about right. As it stands the LSV is utter rubbish for it's cost. Let's be positive, there are better ways to spend your points in our dex totally right Stobz The right points for the LSV should be about 100/110 with twin linked plasma battery and armour value 11 on front and side and it would be nice if you could buy them in squadrons 1-3 LSV then i would spend 150€ to buy 3 of them and field them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 This is a debate as old as the Codex. Basically no one found yet a reliable way to make those LSV's work. Even with a drastic points ruction they would still sit on the shelf unfortunately. AV10, 2 HP and only 24" makes them poor contestants for a HS slot and poor contestants for a normal speeder even at same points. We just have to hope for a better future once the Codex is reviewed. If some of you guys want Nostalgia you can search for older threads about the LSV in this forum, the conclusion is always the same. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I agree with Luci. Ultimately, until GW release eighth edition, light vehicles like speeders will continue to be problematic unless they get supplementary rules which either enhance jink or give them some other form of survivability. To be fair, I have a bit of a problem with the vehicle rules generally (I think hull points should only be lost on a penetrating hit), but that is a subject for another thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Speeders are fine at range the Typhoon is an excellent workhorse and fast giving iy 12" movement The Vengeance suffers from a number of issues but the main one is GW couldn't bear to give it a proper Plasma weapon the range 24" just kills it dead then you've got the cost the av10 etc etc I just can't see an av10 vehicle of that points cost ever being value its just to easily penned and once it jinks its useless Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3925531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 The LSV just stinks. Even if they gave it twin-linked executioner cannons (R: 36", Str 7, AP 2, Heavy 3, Blast, Gets Hot!), it would still be suspect. using Jink would effectively disarm it due to the executioner cannon being a blast weapon, so it really only has its speed and maneuverability as additional assets. Sure, you might see more LSVs then, but only when fielded in tandem with some sort of protective baby sitter, such as a Darkshroud or Techmarine with PFG on bike (either of those things costing 80+ points and not doing much else other than babysitting). I am pretty happy with the much cheaper LS Typhoon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3926434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I feel the ultimate solution will be a massive range boost, say 48" which ultimately would turn it into a tau grade doom cannon which could hang back and use its speed to redeploy itself quickly. And hang back, which really begs to ask why you didnt bring a vindicator instead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3926699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aekold Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 In my eyes the landspeeder vengeance should be: AV11/10/10 2HP 100 points Plasma storm battery: Focussed: 48" S8 AP2. Twin linked, heavy 3 Disperessed: 36" S7 AP2. Twin linked, heavy 1, large blast, gets hot I have my doubts whether or not it should have twin linked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 No plasma weapon ranges should be greater than 36" for anything other than superheavy weapon variants. Stick to the forms at the very least. Dual fire modes are okay, especially as this is a fast skimmer (i.e. it can Jink), and so a direct fire shooting option is a bonus, even if only a little one. I'd keep it simple: Focussed: 36" S7 AP2. Twin linked, heavy 3, gets hot! Dispersed: 36" S7 AP2. Twin linked, heavy 1, large blast, gets hot! As to its armor/overall survivability, there are two options: AV 11/11/10 & HP 2 or AV 10/10/10, HP 3. Either represents a Land Speeder that is nearly the size of a Rhino, but that can't survive the same amount of punishment. I leave out the AV 11/10/10 version, as that would be almost no improvement, the front arc being something like 30 degrees, at which point, who couldn't maneuver to get on either side arc of 150 degrees. That's a whole other beef though, me thinking vehicle facings should universally be 90 degrees to front rear and both sides as measured from the center of the vehicle, such that nobody would EVER argue about what degree facings a vehicle of ANY shape has. They could even incorporate the lines for it on the lartge blast template. Yes, I know, I'm being too sensible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I went with the executioner only because I personally would like to see some weapons being used more than once across imperial forces and the design, aesthetically, fits the bill. Hell if the nephilim's bolt cannon wasn't going to be the same as the fireraptors or the avengers, they should have made it a punisher gatling cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 My take about the LSV is: HEAVY SUPPORT Ravenwing Vengeance Squadron LSV BS4 armour 11/11/10 HP2 fast,skimmer Composition: 1 LSV Points: 100(110) Wargear: Heavy bolter, Plasma storm battery Special rules: Deep Strike, Dispersion generator (when you overheat you lose 1 HP on a roll of 5+ instead of 4+) Options: You can but op to 2 LSV at 100(110) points each. Each LSV can swap the heavy bolter for an assault cannon for +20 points. Plasma Storm Battery Focused 36" S7 AP2 TL, gets hot! Dispersed 36" S7 AP2 Blast 5" TL Gets Hot! The focused mode is still simple shot to allow the LSV to shoot even when it jinks, the dispersion generator (it's the "cathedral window" beside the pilot) reduce the chance of self killing... With TL at 36" range battery, slightly better armour (it's big as the LS javelin so it's right it has the same armour), better survivability to gets hot!, the possibility to take it in squadrons and a reduction in points i am sure people would Field them, in 3 models squadrons Too (i would)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Does the focused mode have 4 shots? It would need them to be worthy of 100+ points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Does the focused mode have 4 shots? It would need them to be worthy of 100+ points.Sorry... I didnt write it...Focused mode is Heavy3 and dispersed mode is Heavy1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Thought so :) I'd like to see it have 4 shots, 3 just doesn't seem enough to make it a solid choice for 110 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3927892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Thought so :) I'd like to see it have 4 shots, 3 just doesn't seem enough to make it a solid choice for 110 points.This is why i wrote 100/110 points cause i am not 100% sure of the right Point cost... I am not Jeremy "Amateurish GD" Vetock... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302220-landspeeder-vengeance-food-for-though/#findComment-3928006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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