Captain Idaho Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 So I just finished The Vengeful Spirit and I am certain it revealed much of the truth of many aspects of 40K background. One particular point I picked up on was right at the end and occurred to me on the train to work. We know Perpetuals are, well, perpetual. They die and come back to life, but we aren't shown how. However, at the end of this book, we see this magic story book used as a focus for the return of one of the Perpetuals. It was her prized possession and she certainly has links to this mysterious book by the looks of it. I postulate to the forum that Perpetuals use specific items to either store a portion of their essence, or they are tied to it in ways they can focus on without getting lost in the Warp, allowing them to return. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 The Dark Eldar reboot already hinted at something similar. From the latest codex: Most Dark Eldar warriors, including each Kabal’s ruling elite, will at some point enter into a terrible pact with the Haemonculi. This devil’s bargain states that the Haemonculi will regenerate the warrior’s body should he die, and in exchange, the seeker will leave the Haemonculi a permanent portion of his soul. Even a corpse that has been all but destroyed in the crucible of war can be restored to its former glory; the Master Haemonculus Urien Rakarth once crafted a perfect new Archon Vriech from a single withered hand. Provided this process is enacted within a day or so of the warrior’s demise, and his will is strong enough that some of his spirit still resonates within his remains, his animus will slowly regenerate along with his physical form. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 So I just finished The Vengeful Spirit and I am certain it revealed much of the truth of many aspects of 40K background. One particular point I picked up on was right at the end and occurred to me on the train to work. We know Perpetuals are, well, perpetual. They die and come back to life, but we aren't shown how. However, at the end of this book, we see this magic story book used as a focus for the return of one of the Perpetuals. It was her prized possession and she certainly has links to this mysterious book by the looks of it. I postulate to the forum that Perpetuals use specific items to either store a portion of their essence, or they are tied to it in ways they can focus on without getting lost in the Warp, allowing them to return. So kind of like the crucibles (?) of Harry Potter where if you use blood magic, you can separate your soul into different items to return at a later time? I don't know, I mean Vulkan doesn't need anything I think unless his hammer is his "object". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Horcrux jokes aside... there might be some validity to this, but I do not think it is the only way. Still, very astute observation though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 ...It might explain why 40k Salamanders believe they need to acquire all 9 artifacts of Vulkan before he can reappear.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareddm Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I put forth instead that not all perpetuals are created equally and to make any sort of generalization about them at this point in time is simply grasping at straws. Do I think that some perpetuals may use such a token item? Yes. Most likely the ones that were created much later, unlike the Emperor and iirc, Ollanius Pius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulawful Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Very interesting theory, and it leads to so many interesting questions. Curse you for making my brain work on a holiday! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Whilst it is quite likely that not all Perpetuals are created equal, particularly when you consider Vulkan and the Emperor, (not that either is actually a Perpetual, rather they share common traits) it is more of an assumption to consider they don't behave in similar ways regarding resurrection. Consider that an alien might meet one of us and discover we walk on two feet. Would that alien assume that that was an anomaly? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think it would be prudent to make the distinction between true perpetuals, like Oll and the Big E who have been around human history for as long as they have.On the other hand the likes of John and Damon are cabal agents who seem to be restored, Damon mentions being plucked from Iwo Jima if I recall correctly so it is possible that they have something to link them to this dimension and bring them back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 Is there a distinction between the likes of Ollanius and the others? A hierarchy perhaps? The Emperor is far removed from them all that's for sure. Hmm. I feel like Optimus Prime merging with Vector Sigma - every answer leads to a bigger question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Well Cap'n I would say there is, judging from this conversation between Oll and John, Know no Fear, Pages 208-9:"'Tough :cuss, Oll You're one of the Perpetuals, whether you like it or not.' 'I'm not like you, John.'John Grammaticus sits back and smiles, pointing a finger at Oll.'No, You're bloody not. I'm only what I am now thanks to xenos intervention. You, you're still a true Perpetual. You're still like him.' " Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Well what's the oldest ones we know Ollanius was one of the Argonauts (I believe that was mentioned in KNF) Damon was on Iwo Jima but he was also with Custer at Little Big Horn if Im not mixing him up with someone else John... I can't remember Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 That is true, Damon was with the 7th back then, as for John, he mentions getting killed in Anatol-hive and the Cabal then stepping in and resurrecting him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 We move to their connection with each other from this point I feel. If some are "artificial", then what is their connection to each other? Why do they talk to each other like old comrades? John spoke of the Perpetuals to Oll like an organisation almost, and I paraphrase, "there's only three of us in Ultramar right now". They seem to be able to find each other, or at least John knew where Oll was and Damon knew where John was. Oh and with the creation of a new Perpetual in Betrayer, we saw Damon get involved pretty quickly. Actually his resurrection was definitely not done by the Cabal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 John implies he only has one perpetual life left after the events with Vulkan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 That is a good point, maybe they bumped into each other in a pub and said "I recognise you from 100 years ago, where was it Verdun? oh no that Tavern in Sedan, you still owe me a pint!" as a Scot I feel obliged to hold the promise of drink for as long as I exist! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3925986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 We move to their connection with each other from this point I feel. If some are "artificial", then what is their connection to each other? Why do they talk to each other like old comrades? John spoke of the Perpetuals to Oll like an organisation almost, and I paraphrase, "there's only three of us in Ultramar right now". They seem to be able to find each other, or at least John knew where Oll was and Damon knew where John was. Oh and with the creation of a new Perpetual in Betrayer, we saw Damon get involved pretty quickly. Actually his resurrection was definitely not done by the Cabal. Well, assuming all perpetuals have the capacity to retain links from their warp-bound forms ('souls') to whatever remains they have left during their 'resurrection', perhaps this somewhat unique relationship with the warp is involved with their ability to detect each other? Either they have some sort of control over their warp-connection, or after their first death - when they had no corporeal from & existed only within the warp - their link with the warp changes, due to having fully inhabited it. I'd suggest the former probably applies to the 'true' perpetuals, and the latter is more accurate for those who are a result of the Cabals' work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Since anything and everything can happen in the warp then it makes sense that eventually individual figure's very essence is thrown back out everytime it tries to enter the warp, dunno if that makes sense. I'm just trying to get over the notion since anything is possible in the immaterium and it's an echo of the material universe perhaps like the way periah's come about, so do Perpetuals but on a lot less frequent basis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Here is another wee tid bit from John in Vulcan Lives " 'You are... Long lived are you not?' ... 'I think you've got me confused with a friend of mine. I would say I have had many lives rather than one that is especially long.' " page 227 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Another interesting thing is where their resurrection takes place etc. Damon Prytanis was immolated on the Fidelitus Lex and appeared there again soon after whilst John was implied to have had his body recovered each time (Unremembered Empire) Oll we haven't seen die and reincarnate as yet whilst the Emperor isn't a good comparison. Vulkan just seemed to heal his own wounds in record time but whether that's inherent in all of them or just the Primarch physiology who knows. The one in Vengeful Spirit died before the portal to the Warp and then appears aboard a ship in orbit... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arac Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 tbh I really don't think BL has the definition what the perpetual actually is. And in the end when you confront them with the question "why is every perpetual different from the next" it's just gonna be a lame excuse like "everyone is different", "the warp .. bla bla". I don't say we cannot argue about this stuff, because it can be really fun, but please don't expect BL to develope the concept of perpetuals intentionally. It is impossible to develope one canon with 20 different authors with ranging skill and without coordination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Another interesting thing is where their resurrection takes place etc. Damon Prytanis was immolated on the Fidelitus Lex and appeared there again soon after whilst John was implied to have had his body recovered each time (Unremembered Empire) Oll we haven't seen die and reincarnate as yet whilst the Emperor isn't a good comparison. Vulkan just seemed to heal his own wounds in record time but whether that's inherent in all of them or just the Primarch physiology who knows. The one in Vengeful Spirit died before the portal to the Warp and then appears aboard a ship in orbit... John got wasted by a bolter I think in Vulkan Lives and stands up like Vulkan does when the Salamanders go and check on him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Personally, I felt that the book's significance was purely of sentimental value, rather than as a connection/condition of her Perpetual status. Her later revivification rather reminded me of Ellen Tigh; we all know how that turned out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Oh I don't know. The words were said to change in subtle ways etc. That book was special. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 It could just be my skimming nature at work here, but the gist I got was that every time she read it, it felt like there was something new about it that was relevant to her current situation. But *shrug* I take it then that you feel that it was her daughter reading the book that brought her back? It just doesn't feel likely to me, since the girl herself is special. It makes it sound like she alone needed to read it, and if that was the case, what did Alicia do before her daughter was born? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302285-how-perpetuals-work-spoiler-zone/#findComment-3926992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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