Drop pods or Rhinos for tac squads

[Shaezus]

Agree with Harrower on the vet and powersword upgrades, meltabombs are worth taking though. I'm also going to try running Corbs with them, his bubble bonus can be abused and thus be helpful to other units in the counter-charge.

[knife&fork]

That LD 9 though..... 

 

I've gotten so used to every squad being either fearless or LD 9/10. LD 8 puts you in the wrong place on the bell curve. 

[Karhedron]

The debate about flexibilty vs specialisation is inevitable and there is no right answer. Specialised units are more effective provided you can guarantee they will be firing at their preffered target. Flexible units may cause less damage to a specific target but will be effective against more units in general.

 

There are limits to this of course. Very few people would advocate putting CC upgrades on a Devastator sergeant. But for tactical squads which occupy a middle ground and have a wide variety of options, I think it comes down to preffered play style. If you are confident of your ability to find suitable targets for your specialised units then go for it. If you prefer your units to be able to counter a variety of threats, then there is mileage in that too.

 

This is why melta bombs are a popular upgrade. We usually hit vehicles on a 3+ in assault and even one melta bomb can make a mess of a target. They are also useful against MCs. For 5 points, they are usually worth taking "just in case". Also they do not compromise the abilities of the squad since you do not have to sacrifice another option to take those melta bombs.

[appiah4]

Although I get the appeal of a barebones Combi-Weapon Sergeant, that Ld9 S9 Power Fist beast is something I often end up caving in and buying.  A raging bald man with a gigantic fist is just too cool not to take. 

 

I know it's overkill, and despite myself I often take Vet Sergeant, Grav Pistol, Power Fist.  65 points for a 1 wound special character, but so good..

 

Yeah..

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

And it's wasting a meltagun. And a flamer. Or that flamer could knock you out of charge range.

 

You're arguing that taking a rapid fire or heavy weapon prevents you from having the option to charge. I'm pointing out that you are still able to fire your weapons and charge, thanks to the pistols. The option is still there. If there is a situation where charging in would be better than rapid firing your bolters and your grav/plasmagun, it's still open to you.

 

Meltaguns/flamers don't suddenly make that an option. They don't enable it. They work in tandem with it better, but you're talking a niche scenario.

 

 

You can still fire your melta and charge; that's why I'm saying plasma is wasted: because you can't do both in the same turn.

 

 

Why is it a must? I love multi role units as much as anyone, but Tacs are never going to be great at assault. Upgrading the sarge and giving him a power weapon makes them better, but why waste the points?

 

I'd like to think I'm competent enough at the game to get my units where I need them to so they'll have the best chance of success. I'm not saying things aren't going to go south now and then, but if I'm assaulting with Tacs I'm assaulting out of desperation. If I end up not using all those upgrades it's just a waste and if I have them it makes me want to assault with them which you just shouldn't do.

 

If you ask me, leave the power weapons and the vet sarge at home.

 

 

I agree with your last line. I'm not advocating trying to make them killer at assault; all I'm saying is try to not choose a SW/HW loadout that is actively disencouraging you from using your BA bonus (FC).

 

 

That LD 9 though..... 

 

I've gotten so used to every squad being either fearless or LD 9/10. LD 8 puts you in the wrong place on the bell curve. 

 

Well, look at it this way: there are sometimes advantages to having a lower Ld. When you're getting trounced by something ferocious in CC, for example. ATSKNF is such a great rule because of that.

[knife&fork]

 

Well, look at it this way: there are sometimes advantages to having a lower Ld. When you're getting trounced by something ferocious in CC, for example. ATSKNF is such a great rule because of that.

 

 

Yes, running away is often a great thing for marines, but I find that those times you've already lost combat by quite a lot. The modified LD is so low that the extra blip makes little difference. Or the unit is so weakened that breaking free is worse than holding up the opponent for another combat phase. 

 

Failing the unmodified LD check is usually much worse and comes up more often than combats gone sour: 

Break tests when close to the board edge or holding an objective.

Pinning test.

Psychic powers (mostly nids or Belakor with psychic shriek) 

and so on...

 

 

Worth 10 pts for the vet upgrade? Maybe, at least if it's a unit that's supposed to hold the line like tacs. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Heh, Tacs is actually one of the last places that I'd use the Vet upgrade. I always Combat Squad, so it's half wasted from the get-go.

[knife&fork]

How come?

 

My line of thinking is like this:

 

Assault squads should either be winning assaults, or deploy in small inexpensive alpha strike pod units. 

Devastators should be low priority targets, otherwise they need bodies to handle the attention. 

Scouts... well they are scouts, I don't expect much at all really. 

Tacticals are speedbumps, objective holder and anti infantry fire dispensers. It's the only unit I would expect to stand ground and disappearing as slowly as possible is a bonus. 

[Deschenus Maximus]

Because 10 pts to boost the Ld of only 5 guys is too rich for my blood. Besides, when you start adding up the upgrade over several squads, it gets kinda costly.

[knife&fork]

Oh, I run tacs in 10s, not 5s. 

 

No sense in taking them over any other pick unless I get to use the maximum amount of guns. And the 12" bolter death is actually kinda useful vs anything not marines. 

[Fahlnor]

This thread seems to have become focused on Tactical Squad loadouts, rather than the question of whether to use Drop Pods or Rhinos.  Both are questions I wanted to ask, so I figure this is the best place for them!

 

Rhinos vs. Drop Pods: I feel that in the hands of an experienced player, Rhinos are a more flexible option.  In my hands, not so much.  I don't have the tactical nous to get the most use out of them.  I'm also heavily aware that more Drop Pods give me greater short-range fire support and distraction units for my meltacide units and my Death Company respectively.  I feel that I ought to use the Drop Pods for now but work on the tactical uses of the Rhinos.

 

In terms of the unit's equipment, I'm a little torn.  My initial thoughts are to take the heavy flamer (nearly) always - it does seem too good not to have.  The only time I'd reconsider is if I planned to leave the heavy weapon stationary in my backfield for long-ranged support, but I don't see myself ever doing that.  I'd then take a pair of special weapon/combi-weapon - either flamers, meltas or plasmas.

 

I kinda feel that if I'm bringing meltacide pods, I maybe don't need the meltagun/combi-melta in my Tactical Squad.  The flamer is tempting, but only really brings anti-horde, which is something that I kinda have in spades already (massed bolters, Death Company, Assault Squads, heavy flamers).  It seems to me that the plasma can threaten units I wasn't previously worrying (TEQs and MEQs, particularly) while still providing a decent damage output against hordes and light armour.

 

The melta bomb will pretty much always be there just in case I see an opportunity to use it - at 5 points, it's too cheap not to take.  But I wouldn't be putting any other upgrades on the unit.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts about any of this?

 

TL;DR: Drop Pods are easier to use well than Rhinos; heavy flamer is clearly the best heavy weapon for mobile Tactical Squads, plasma gun/combi-plasma gives the best threat range so long as your melta is covered elsewhere.

 

Edit: tidied syntax

[Shaezus]

Oh, I run tacs in 10s, not 5s.  No sense in taking them over any other pick unless I get to use the maximum amount of guns. And the 12" bolter death is actually kinda useful vs anything not marines.

 

Likewise. I probably would take vet sgt if I wasn't taking corbulo with 9 marines. Full squads also fulfill the role of relic-grabbers much more reliably...unless I get like 11" scatter..which hopefully won't happen with Corbs in charge now.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@Fahlnor: Rhinos are more flexible in theory, but in practice, that is rarely the case. Being so easy to pop, they are prime targets for First Blood, and if your opponent goes first, he can cripple your mobility completely before your guys have even left their deployment zone. Also, BA Rhinos are overcosted; Fast is great on Preds, Vindies and the like, but 10 pts is seriously too much for the little benefit it gives a Rhino.

 

Pods all the way.

[Fahlnor]

@Fahlnor: Rhinos are more flexible in theory, but in practice, that is rarely the case. Being so easy to pop, they are prime targets for First Blood, and if your opponent goes first, he can cripple your mobility completely before your guys have even left their deployment zone. Also, BA Rhinos are overcosted; Fast is great on Preds, Vindies and the like, but 10 pts is seriously too much for the little benefit it gives a Rhino.

 

Pods all the way.

That's interesting.  I mean, using the Drop Pods with a modicum of care (rather than just auto-dropping them in your opponent's DZ every game) would give you a bunch of handy options.  I'm running five in my 1,500 army - that's a first turn wall around the Relic, for a simple example.

 

Are there any particular tricks for Drop Pods that are worth knowing?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

@Fahlnor: Rhinos are more flexible in theory, but in practice, that is rarely the case. Being so easy to pop, they are prime targets for First Blood, and if your opponent goes first, he can cripple your mobility completely before your guys have even left their deployment zone. Also, BA Rhinos are overcosted; Fast is great on Preds, Vindies and the likOile, but 10 pts is seriously too much for the little benefit it gives a Rhino.

 

Pods all the way.

 

That's interesting.  I mean, using the Drop Pods with a modicum of care (rather than just auto-dropping them in your opponent's DZ every game) would give you a bunch of handy options.  I'm running five in my 1,500 army - that's a first turn wall around the Relic, for a simple example.

 

Are there any particular tricks for Drop Pods that are worth knowing?

If you bought them for troops, drop them on (within 3") objectives. They'll have objective secured and your opponent will need to kill an armour 12 vehicle to take the objective.

[Fahlnor]

 

 

@Fahlnor: Rhinos are more flexible in theory, but in practice, that is rarely the case. Being so easy to pop, they are prime targets for First Blood, and if your opponent goes first, he can cripple your mobility completely before your guys have even left their deployment zone. Also, BA Rhinos are overcosted; Fast is great on Preds, Vindies and the likOile, but 10 pts is seriously too much for the little benefit it gives a Rhino.

 

Pods all the way.

That's interesting.  I mean, using the Drop Pods with a modicum of care (rather than just auto-dropping them in your opponent's DZ every game) would give you a bunch of handy options.  I'm running five in my 1,500 army - that's a first turn wall around the Relic, for a simple example.

 

Are there any particular tricks for Drop Pods that are worth knowing?

If you bought them for troops, drop them on (within 3") objectives. They'll have objective secured and your opponent will need to kill an armour 12 vehicle to take the objective.

 

If only we poor Blood Angels had ObSec!

 

This is definitely something I would do with a Space Marine army, though.

 

:)

[Jolemai]

We do...

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Yeah, we do. :-)

[appiah4]

We do...

With CAD? Yeah. With BSF? Not so much..

 

Thatvsaid, Im shooting for the 3 tac 3 raven formation with 3 drop pod tacticals in a CAD so, who cares? ;)

[Shaezus]

Obsec is useless when you are dead.

[toaae]

There are people who play Blood Angels and don't use the Baal Strike Force?

 

ObSec or not, pods on an objective are a good move. They will hold it if left alone, and will require destruction if a non-ObSec unit wants to hold that objective. And then there is the unit the pod brought.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Wait isn't BSF also CAD?

[Shaezus]

BSF has its own bonuses; obsec is not one of them.

[Fahlnor]

Wait isn't BSF also CAD?

Nope.

 

There are different Detachments you can use, each of which grants its own benefits.  The "standard" Detachment is the Combined Arms Detachment as presented in the rulebook.  It grants you ObSec.  Baal Strike Force (Blood Angels Codex), gives you +1 Initiative on the charge.  Ork Horde Detachment (Ork Codex) gives your units of ten or more models Hammer of Wrath if they roll 10 or higher for their charge distance.  Etc.

 

So, when you build your army, you choose which Detachment or Formation your units will belong to.  If your units belong to a CAD, the Troops will have ObSec.  If they belong to a BSF, they will get +1I on the charge.

 

You can combine Detachments in an army - so, you could have a CAD and a BSF, but you would have to take your minimum HQ and two Troops for the CAD and HQ, Elite and two Troops for the BSF before you get to take any fun stuff - and you cannot have units or models in your army belonging to more than one Detachment or Formation at once.

 

The one way you can get both ObSec and +1I is by using the Blood Angels Battle Company (Blood Angels Codex, pp. 98-99).  However, that Formation requires you to take a complete Battle Company - as in, the full ten squads.  As an absolute minimum, it's costing you 1,335 points and each of your ten squads would consist of five Space Marines with no wargear whatsoever.

[Xenith]

Haha, some people just got shaken up.

 

If you're using the +1 I from the baal strike force, then you dont get ObSec.