Fahlnor Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Simple question: can Tactical Squads disembark from Stormravens using the Skies of Blood rule (or whatever it's called)? The rule says they disembark and are deployed as if deep-striking. Obviously, Tactical squads can't normally deep-strike, but the wording of this rule suggests to me that they can do so from a Stormraven. I don't have my Codex handy, so I can't remember the exact wording. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSauce Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yeah, it's a kind of deep strike. You have to choose a point that the stormraven flew over, and if they scatter at all they all must take a dangerous terrain test. If any model can't be placed they go splat and are all destroyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3926838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 Thanks for replying! Yup, that much is clear to me. Just wasn't sure if units which couldn't normally deep strike (Tactical Squads, Sternguard, etc.) can use the 'deep strike' from the Stormraven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3926941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 the clue is in the 'as if deepstriking' It doesnt say they need the deepstrike rule, or that it grants the deepstrike rule. This probably has an interesting interaction with Augur triangulation... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3927696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronhour Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 the clue is in the 'as if deepstriking' It doesnt say they need the deepstrike rule, or that it grants the deepstrike rule. :) This probably has an interesting interaction with Augur triangulation... probably a good way to use the tac squads, combat squad them and you can drop them at obj or certain units to harass, heavy flamer, plasma seems like a good bet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCommanderSamirus Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Augur triangulation states units entering from deep strike reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, sadly the augur triangulation doesn't work with the Tactical Squads on the Stormraven. It does, however, work with units arriving via Drop Pod Assault on turn one. It's a 1020-point investment, but potentially a hilarious alpha strike to pull on someone at least once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapelXIII Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, sadly the augur triangulation doesn't work with the Tactical Squads on the Stormraven. It does, however, work with units arriving via Drop Pod Assault on turn one. It's a 1020-point investment, but potentially a hilarious alpha strike to pull on someone at least once. Why are you saying that the augur triangulation doesn't work with the tactical squad in the stormraven? That flies against everything else I have heard. The tactical squad is on the field inside the stormraven, and there is no language that would suggest being in a transport would negate the effects of the teleport homer or augur triangulation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, sadly the augur triangulation doesn't work with the Tactical Squads on the Stormraven. It does, however, work with units arriving via Drop Pod Assault on turn one. It's a 1020-point investment, but potentially a hilarious alpha strike to pull on someone at least once. Why are you saying that the augur triangulation doesn't work with the tactical squad in the stormraven? That flies against everything else I have heard. The tactical squad is on the field inside the stormraven, and there is no language that would suggest being in a transport would negate the effects of the teleport homer or augur triangulation. There is, it was stated above. Augur triangulation specifies deep strike reserve, which is different to deploying by deepstrike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Augur triangulation states units entering from deep strike reserve.Yes, but Skies of Fury states that the unit deploys "as if it were Deep Striking". A unit that is deep striking always arrives from the deep strike reserves onto the battlefield. So units using Skies of Fury are treated as if they were arriving from the deep strike reserves, even though they actually come from inside the Stormraven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 That formation is written so poorly and violates/overrules core rules with the greatest of ambiguity. According to the Codex, teleport homers only work with terminator armor, but for this formation only, that doesn't seem to matter. According to the rules for reserves, rolls are made at the beginning of the second turn, but of this formation that doesn't seem to matter. Augur Triangulation states affected units must arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, yet Skies of Fury indicate units "deploy ... as if Deep Striking" Personally, I think the tactical squads cannot deploy turn one and do not benefit from the augur triangulation. The storm ravens are not on the board at the beginning of the turn (that is when the player rolls for reserves) but there's so many fails at writing this formation that I have just decided to not even use it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Augur triangulation states units entering from deep strike reserve.Yes, but Skies of Fury states that the unit deploys "as if it were Deep Striking". A unit that is deep striking always arrives from the deep strike reserves onto the battlefield. So units using Skies of Fury are treated as if they were arriving from the deep strike reserves, even though they actually come from inside the Stormraven. So you're telling me that a unit inside a stormraven is actually in reserves? That formation is written so poorly and violates/overrules core rules with the greatest of ambiguity. According to the Codex, teleport homers only work with terminator armor, but for this formation only, that doesn't seem to matter. According to the rules for reserves, rolls are made at the beginning of the second turn, but of this formation that doesn't seem to matter. Augur Triangulation states affected units must arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, yet Skies of Fury indicate units "deploy ... as if Deep Striking" Personally, I think the tactical squads cannot deploy turn one and do not benefit from the augur triangulation. The storm ravens are not on the board at the beginning of the turn (that is when the player rolls for reserves) but there's so many fails at writing this formation that I have just decided to not even use it. Breaking core rules is what special rules do. If everything followed core rules, the game would be boring. You are also wrong. Teleport homers only work for Termie armour. The Augur triangulation, a completely different rule to the normal one provided by teleport homers, works for any form of deepstriking. Once again, deploy as if deepstriking, not deploy the unit as if coming in from deepstrike reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fahlnor Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm inclined to say that the Tactical Squads which are embarked on the Stormraven cannot benefit from the Augur Triangulation rule as they don't arrive from Deep Strike Reserves. They are deployed "as if [they] were Deep Striking", but that doesn't mean they go from the Stormraven into Deep Strike Reserves and then get placed on the table. The rule to deploy the unit as if it Deep Striked is a description of the mechanic used to deploy them, nothing more. The Augur Triangulation rule doesn't require that a unit actually Deep Strikes. It only requires that the unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserves, which, as I said earlier, I don't agree that the embarked Tactical Squads do. On the other hand, if you bring the Stormravens onto the table on turn one and move them 36" onto the board, you could then use Drop Pod Assault to bring in one or more Drop Pods. The units inside the Drop Pods absolutely could benefit from Augur Triangulation on the condition that at least one of the units' models are initially disembarked from the Drop Pod within 12" of two of the Stormravens. Again, the rule Augur Triangulation only requires that a unit "... arrives from Deep Strike Reserves within 12" of at least two models from this Formation equipped with teleport homers..." Units embarked in Drop Pods clearly do exactly that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 So you're telling me that a unit inside a stormraven is actually in reserves?No, but treated as if it were in the deep strike reserves right before arrival. If it weren't treated that way, no unit, whether with or without the deep strike rule, could ever disembark from the Stormraven using the Skies of Fury rule, because such a unit must still obey the entire deep strike rule not just the procedure for arriving via deep strike: Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn and deploy the squad as if it were Deep Striking onto that point. In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).So either Skies of Fury does not work at all or the unit embarked on the Stormraven must be treated as: -having the Deep Strike Rule (irrelevant for units that have the rule anyways, but enabling DS on all others) -having started the game in reserve -being placed in Deep Strike Reserves -being designated as a deep striking unit for the opponent Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Augur triangulation states units entering from deep strike reserve.Yes, but Skies of Fury states that the unit deploys "as if it were Deep Striking". A unit that is deep striking always arrives from the deep strike reserves onto the battlefield. So units using Skies of Fury are treated as if they were arriving from the deep strike reserves, even though they actually come from inside the Stormraven. So you're telling me that a unit inside a stormraven is actually in reserves? That formation is written so poorly and violates/overrules core rules with the greatest of ambiguity. According to the Codex, teleport homers only work with terminator armor, but for this formation only, that doesn't seem to matter. According to the rules for reserves, rolls are made at the beginning of the second turn, but of this formation that doesn't seem to matter. Augur Triangulation states affected units must arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, yet Skies of Fury indicate units "deploy ... as if Deep Striking" Personally, I think the tactical squads cannot deploy turn one and do not benefit from the augur triangulation. The storm ravens are not on the board at the beginning of the turn (that is when the player rolls for reserves) but there's so many fails at writing this formation that I have just decided to not even use it. Breaking core rules is what special rules do. If everything followed core rules, the game would be boring. You are also wrong. Teleport homers only work for Termie armour. The Augur triangulation, a completely different rule to the normal one provided by teleport homers, works for any form of deepstriking. Once again, deploy as if deepstriking, not deploy the unit as if coming in from deepstrike reserve. As I said and you quoted, "According to the Codex, teleport homers only work with terminator armor, but for this formation only, that doesn't seem to matter." I'm not sure where it follows I'm wrong on how teleport homers work. Yes, special rules break core rules. But special rules should clearly indicate how they function. Instead of all the crap that was written that mixes reserves and teleport homers, it could have been written much better by ignoring any reference to teleport homers. Consider: Augur Triangulation: “Friendly units of the Blood Angels faction composed entirely of models that deploy using the Deep Strike rules (page 650) do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike Reserve, so long as the first model is placed within 6" of the squad's sergeant. For this to work, the bearer must have been on the battlefield at the start of the turn.” I believe that simple edit is more understandable. I believe it also includes all of the units you believe can deep strike using Augur Triangulation - terminators, jump infantry, and any unit deploying using the Skies of Fury special rule. Why do I think the references to teleport homers should be removed? Because every sergeant is forced to take one for free. The teleport homer brings in a subset of units (terminators) that the Augur Triangulation covers. The only scenario I see my edit not working as written now is when a Sergeant wants to summon a terminator squad. In that scenario he wouldn't need to be within 12" of another sergeant. So I will cop to changing the RAW. But any edit is a change in RAW. The Augur Triangulation requirement of being within 12" of two teleport homers just also seems to make it a scenario in tedious model placement. Does my edit really make it so much more powerful than what we currently have? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 So you're telling me that a unit inside a stormraven is actually in reserves?No, but treated as if it were in the deep strike reserves right before arrival. If it weren't treated that way, no unit, whether with or without the deep strike rule, could ever disembark from the Stormraven using the Skies of Fury rule, because such a unit must still obey the entire deep strike rule not just the procedure for arriving via deep strike:Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn and deploy the squad as if it were Deep Striking onto that point. In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).So either Skies of Fury does not work at all or the unit embarked on the Stormraven must be treated as:-having the Deep Strike Rule (irrelevant for units that have the rule anyways, but enabling DS on all others) -having started the game in reserve -being placed in Deep Strike Reserves -being designated as a deep striking unit for the opponent I cant be bothered. Play that models inside transports are in reserve then :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascalnz Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 the rules are really clear, it's just when people infer things that it gets messy. 1. deep striking and arriving from deep strike reserves are two different things. I.E. you couldn't get to assault after you used the gate psychic power,that's just deep striking. you can assault after arriving in a drop pod because units in a transport that is in "deep strike reserves" also count as being in "deep strike reserves" 2.Auger triangulation does not use ANY of the rules for Teleport homers. It is a separate rule with very distinct and clear abilities. Part of that rule is that models must have a teleport homer. They could be required to have a slice of cheese and the rule would work exactly the same. If you want to use the teleport homer rule, go ahead, it just has nothing to do with Augur triangulation. Also, you measure from the hull of the transport for any effect involving an embarked model, so no need to get out to use the rule. that's it easy as pie;). if you could deep strike the Ravens then you could have the tacticals benefit from auger triangulation, because they would have been in "deep strike reserves" but you can't so they don't. I hope that clears everything up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-3928931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 the rules are really clear, it's just when people infer things that it gets messy. 1. deep striking and arriving from deep strike reserves are two different things. The rulebook says "...arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)..." So, therefore, Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves So, I am inclined to think that the Skies of Fury language in the Blood Angels Codex of "deploy the squad as if it were Deep Striking onto that point" If Deep Strike = Deep Striking (is this a stretch?), then Augur Triangulation works with the Tactical Squads loaded into the Stormravens in the formation. Thoughts? The language does not say, "roll a scatter die and 2D6"... I played this formation this past weekend and rolled the scatter dice... but upon reading the rulebook, the formation, and the codex... I dont know. Convince me otherwise! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4006800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 the rules are really clear, it's just when people infer things that it gets messy. 1. deep striking and arriving from deep strike reserves are two different things. The rulebook says "...arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)..." So, therefore, Deep Strike = Deep Strike Reserves This where the reading comprehension breaks down. You quote the rulebook in one line, then in the same breath draw the completely wrong conclusion. 'Deep Strike' sometimes equals 'Deep Strike Reserves'. All models that are in deepstrike reserve deep strike, however not all models that deepstrike are deep strike reserves. The clue in in whether you elected to put those models into deep strike reserve during deployment, or if some other factor has specifically put them into deep strike reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4006851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucumon Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 'Deep Strike' sometimes equals 'Deep Strike Reserves'.... ...The clue in in whether you elected to put those models into deep strike reserve during deployment, or if some other factor has specifically put them into deep strike reserve. Not to be contentious (I am really trying to understand the issue), but can you quote a rule source on this? I've given quotes from the book, not interpretations... I am hoping for direct quotes/references that say otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4006858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother apocalyptic Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Well, then the Angels fury spearhead formation just got wacky good... Angels fur spearhead formation - 1050 pts 3 ravens, 3 * 10 tacticals, 3 melta The Archangels - 2945 pts captain - 160 JP, valours edge, stormshield, artificier armour Chaplain - 145 terminator armor, powerfist 4 furioso dreanoughts - 500 4 Drop pods - 140 10 * 5 Assault terminators - 2100 10 * 3 LC, 2 TH & SH go second, and you destroy any enemy you face... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4006866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 'Deep Strike' sometimes equals 'Deep Strike Reserves'.... ...The clue in in whether you elected to put those models into deep strike reserve during deployment, or if some other factor has specifically put them into deep strike reserve. Not to be contentious (I am really trying to understand the issue), but can you quote a rule source on this? I've given quotes from the book, not interpretations... I am hoping for direct quotes/references that say otherwise. Pardon me butting in but things often come down to interpretations. No matter how many quotes are exchanged it ultimately comes down to interpretation where there is ambiguity. 7th ed was much about removing ambiguities and cross-tangled rules, so in this case it's reasonable to expect the meaning to be present in the quotes already given. In short, a tactical squad in a raven that has already entered play is no longer in reserve. It has already deployed as an embarked passenger in a vehicle. Therefore augur triangulation doesn't apply to it when using skies of fury. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4007336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rottimus Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The thing is, there really isn't ambiguity in this. ''Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve'' CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY refers to things that are 'in reserve and are moving onto the table from reserve' The tacticals inside the ravens are most certainly NOT in reserve in any way shape or fashion... they may leave the raven and deploying 'as if it were deepstriking' <- That bit is clearly referring to the rules for deepstriking. i.e place one model, roll scatter + 2d6 and then deploy the rest. Anyone interpreting this formation as 'oh tacticals can charge 1st turn' is doing language contortions in order to justify it. Calling such contortions 'ambiguity' is a stretch. my most humble of opinions! Happy Gaming! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4007773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The thing is, there really isn't ambiguity in this. ''Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve'' CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY refers to things that are 'in reserve and are moving onto the table from reserve' The tacticals inside the ravens are most certainly NOT in reserve in any way shape or fashion... they may leave the raven and deploying 'as if it were deepstriking' <- That bit is clearly referring to the rules for deepstriking. i.e place one model, roll scatter + 2d6 and then deploy the rest. Why are you omitting part of the deep strike rules? To deep strike a unit must start the game in reserve. if a unit arrives by deep striking it must have been in reserve (or count as such) unless a rule explicitly removes that requirement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4007820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rottimus Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 The thing is, there really isn't ambiguity in this. ''Arriving from Deep Strike Reserve'' CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY refers to things that are 'in reserve and are moving onto the table from reserve' The tacticals inside the ravens are most certainly NOT in reserve in any way shape or fashion... they may leave the raven and deploying 'as if it were deepstriking' <- That bit is clearly referring to the rules for deepstriking. i.e place one model, roll scatter + 2d6 and then deploy the rest. Why are you omitting part of the deep strike rules? To deep strike a unit must start the game in reserve. if a unit arrives by deep striking it must have been in reserve (or count as such) unless a rule explicitly removes that requirement. The tacticals deploy 'as if they were deepstriking'.... seeing as how they are ALREADY on the table AND embarked upon a transport. They CANNOT be coming in from deepstrike reserves. The triangulation specifies 'deepstrike reserves'. The tacticsl deploy as if they were deepstriking, NOT as if they were entering the board from deepstrike reserves. I'm not sure why I'm bothering to argue it. The consensus here, and on dakkadakka and against people I've played, Heard people play and a vast multitude of blog posts, articles and reviews of the formation all agree that the tacticals cannot use the triangulation for the reasons stated above. An very similar situation occured with the old codex where Vanguard Veterans COULD NOT use Heroic intervention AND skies of blood because.... Heroic intervention used the word 'Deepstriking from reserves' This formation does exactly that - specifies 'reserve'. It's almost the exact same situation yet people accept one but not the other... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302332-deep-striking-from-stormravens/#findComment-4007842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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