Deep striking from Stormravens

[Lucumon]

 

 

The triangulation specifies 'deepstrike reserves'. 

 

 

To be clear, I think the rules as intended mean that scatter from Skies of Blood is not eliminated by Augur Triangulation.  Especially in friendly games... I'd prefer to have a good time than to so some verbal flips for a minor advantage.  

 

Rules as written (you know, that whole RAW thing) from the BRB (you know, the thing that provides definitions and allowances), however, state that "...arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)".  One reading of this means that DS and DSR are interchangeable in terms of meaning.

 

This all being said, just take a Locator Beacon and you solve the scattering issue.

[Quixus]

The tacticsl deploy as if they were deepstriking, NOT as if they were entering the board from deepstrike reserves.

To follow the rules for arrving by deep strike the unit must have been in deep strike reserve, or count as such. There is no way around it unless a rule explicitly removes that part of the rule. If a unit does not come from deep strike reserves or count as coming from there it is not deep striking or arriving as if deep striking. That would be a non-standard way of deployment with only some similarities to deep strike.

[Rottimus]

 

 

 

The triangulation specifies 'deepstrike reserves'. 

 

 

To be clear, I think the rules as intended mean that scatter from Skies of Blood is not eliminated by Augur Triangulation.  Especially in friendly games... I'd prefer to have a good time than to so some verbal flips for a minor advantage.  

 

Rules as written (you know, that whole RAW thing) from the BRB (you know, the thing that provides definitions and allowances), however, state that "...arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)".  One reading of this means that DS and DSR are interchangeable in terms of meaning.

 

This all being said, just take a Locator Beacon and you solve the scattering issue.

 

Again, people bring up that rule/sentence... and completely ignore 'arriving'. There isn't as far as I know, a rule that specifies what 'arriving' is... but it is generally accepted as the first instance in which a unit enters the physical space of the battlefield. Hence, the tacticals already arrived (inside the ravens) rendering that sentence unapplicable.

 

Either way, looking at it historically:

 

GW Faq'ed Vanguard Heroic Intervention + Skies of Blood/fury. It wasn't allowed. Vanguard Heroic Intervention + skies of blood/fury was ruled as not a proper deepstrike from reserves and thus could not use heroic intervention.

 

I see no reason other logic should be applied.

 

For me, and I'm not trying to be antagonistic or dickish, but this debate and most other debates always come down to two things - The general consensus and those who hold out purely by the force of their ego.... as if losing a plastic men rules debate is a big deal.

 

I'd LOVE to be able to skies of fury my tacticals into the face of my enemy turn 1! That'd be awesome sauce! but the wording, consensus and common sense says otherwise. Using RAW, which I am familiar with, I still find that you cannot combine tacticals + triangulation.

[Rottimus]

 

The tacticsl deploy as if they were deepstriking, NOT as if they were entering the board from deepstrike reserves.

To follow the rules for arrving by deep strike the unit must have been in deep strike reserve, or count as such. There is no way around it unless a rule explicitly removes that part of the rule. If a unit does not come from deep strike reserves or count as coming from there it is not deep striking or arriving as if deep striking. That would be a non-standard way of deployment with only some similarities to deep strike.

 

Wrong. You are adding your own words to it. ''Arriving'' appears exactly ZERO times in skies of fury. You're also adding an assumption. The assumption that all deepstriking unit are ALWAYS in reserve is wrong. What about created units like daemons or Gate of infinity etc etc.

[Quixus]

Wrong. You are adding your own words to it. ''Arriving'' appears exactly ZERO times in skies of fury. You're also adding an assumption. The assumption that all deepstriking unit are ALWAYS in reserve is wrong. What about created units like daemons or Gate of infinity etc etc.

Not in Skies of Fury, but in Deep Strike. Skies of Fury tells us to deploy the unit as if deep striking. A unit cannot deploy by deep strike without starting the game in Reserve and coming in from reserves. To ignore this requirement Skies of Fury would have to explicitly waive it. Since it does not, you have two options. Skies of Fury either does not work at all, because the unit is not in reserves or it does because the unit that actually is in the stormraven is treated as having started the game in reserve and coming in from reserve.

[Rottimus]

 

Wrong. You are adding your own words to it. ''Arriving'' appears exactly ZERO times in skies of fury. You're also adding an assumption. The assumption that all deepstriking unit are ALWAYS in reserve is wrong. What about created units like daemons or Gate of infinity etc etc.

Not in Skies of Fury, but in Deep Strike. Skies of Fury tells us to deploy the unit as if deep striking. A unit cannot deploy by deep strike without starting the game in Reserve and coming in from reserves. To ignore this requirement Skies of Fury would have to explicitly waive it. Since it does not, you have two options. Skies of Fury either does not work at all, because the unit is not in reserves or it does because the unit that actually is in the stormraven is treated as having started the game in reserve and coming in from reserve.

 

This is wishful thinking. You are forcing a decision & attribute where none needs to be made. "A unit cannot deploy by deep strike without starting the game in Reserve" <- this sentence has been pulled out of nowhere and simply does not apply. Just because you repeating it doesn't mean it suddenly becomes a rule. Just because something can deepstrike, doesn't automatically give it the attribute of 'reserves'

 

The rule is in fact: "In order for a unit to be able to deepstrike, all models must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve" p162 BRB.

 

Now, there are multiple units that can 'deep strike' WITHOUT being in reserves. We all know that the codex overrules the BRB. Which allows for:::: Daemons, that can be created and thus 'deepstrike'. They weren't in reserve. Veil of Darkness can move a unit off the table and then deepstrike it somewhere else. They weren't in reserve. Gate of Infinity does the same thing. Not in reserve. None of these units have suddenly become ''reserves'' by virtue of deepstriking... They don't become reserves for .2 seconds and then deepstrike.... they just deepstrike. Unless you can point to a rule that SAYS they gain the attribute of 'reserves' then they are simply a unit that moves with the deepstrike deployment rules.

 

The ABSENCE of a rule doesn't mean you can fill it with whatever you want.

 

So when the formation SPECIFICALLY says 'Deepstrike RESERVES'... it's specifically referring to units that a) Aren't on the table already and b) are in RESERVES.

 

Deep Strike Reserves is capitalised. ALL units that are going arrive from via Deep Strike Reserve must be declared at the start of the battle. I.e Jump pack unit A is in reserve and going to deepstrike. Jump pack unit A cannot decide to walk onto the table instead. It MUST deepstrike. Hence the whole point of the rulebook specifying 'Deep Strike Reserve' and just 'Deep Strike' like in the Gate of Infinity entry.

 

Either way, I'm not going to play you and most likely won't face this army so... I'm done. We agree to disagree.

[Arkangilos]

I think the key words here are "as if"

 

"As if deep striking" does not mean "as if they are deep striking reserves" or "as if in reserve."

 

You basically treat them "as if deep striking" meaning, "roll the scatter dice." 

[Quixus]

This is wishful thinking. You are forcing a decision & attribute where none needs to be made. "A unit cannot deploy by deep strike without starting the game in Reserve" <- this sentence has been pulled out of nowhere and simply does not apply. Just because you repeating it doesn't mean it suddenly becomes a rule. Just because something can deepstrike, doesn't automatically give it the attribute of 'reserves'

The rule is in fact: "In order for a unit to be able to deepstrike, all models must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve" p162 BRB.

In a permissive rule set you can invert what you quoted and you get what I paraphrased. If you must do something (start in reserves) to be allowed to do something else (be able to deep strike) is the same as not being allowed to do something (deep striking) unless you do something else first (start in reserve). A very easy example: "you must roll a 6 to steal the initiative" also means "you cannot steal the initiative unless you roll a 6".

Now, there are multiple units that can 'deep strike' WITHOUT being in reserves. We all know that the codex overrules the BRB. Which allows for:::: Daemons, that can be created and thus 'deepstrike'. They weren't in reserve. Veil of Darkness can move a unit off the table and then deepstrike it somewhere else. They weren't in reserve. Gate of Infinity does the same thing. Not in reserve. None of these units have suddenly become ''reserves'' by virtue of deepstriking... They don't become reserves for .2 seconds and then deepstrike.... they just deepstrike. Unless you can point to a rule that SAYS they gain the attribute of 'reserves' then they are simply a unit that moves with the deepstrike deployment rules.

The ABSENCE of a rule doesn't mean you can fill it with whatever you want.

I do not fill the rules with anything, I merely refuse to ignore part of the rules which I am not instructed to ignore by skies of fury. A unit being allowed to arrive as if deep striking does not mean it need not have been in reserves or have the deep strike rule, it means that such a unit is treated as if it had the deep strike rule and was in reserves.

So when the formation SPECIFICALLY says 'Deepstrike RESERVES'... it's specifically referring to units that a) Aren't on the table already and are in RESERVES.

Deep Strike Reserves is capitalised. ALL units that are going arrive from via Deep Strike Reserve must be declared at the start of the battle. I.e Jump pack unit A is in reserve and going to deepstrike. Jump pack unit A cannot decide to walk onto the table instead. It MUST deepstrike. Hence the whole point of the rulebook specifying 'Deep Strike Reserve' and just 'Deep Strike' like in the Gate of Infinity entry.

Yes, but a unit using Skies of Fury maust be treated as having the deep strike rule and having been in the reserves (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves). Otherwise skies of Fury does not work at all.

I think the key words here are "as if"

"As if deep striking" does not mean "as if they are deep striking reserves" or "as if in reserve."

You basically treat them "as if deep striking" meaning, "roll the scatter dice."

Please quote the rules that allow you to ignore those requirements. By allowing the non-standard deployment, the Skies of Fury rule waives the need for the unit to have the Deep Strike rule (passengers are not restricted to units with that rule), but it does not explicitly waive the need to have started the game in reserves. Only through explicitly waiving that would the unit not count as having been in reserves and still be deployed as if deep striking. Anything else would not be as if deep striking but some other form of non-standard deployment.

[Arkangilos]

If it is in reserves, then would it not have to roll to disembark when using skies of fury? Therefore, if you failed the reserve roll (as you must take in order to deploy your reserves) then they cannot deploy at all in that turn, and it is all moot.

 

The passengers are embarked on the vehicle, and it is the vehicle that would be in the reserves or not.

 

It waives the deep strike rule because anyone can do it, it doesn't need to waive the "reserves rule" because the passengers are only in reserve so long as their transport is. The special deployment is the "as if deep striking" meaning when they deploy, they roll for scatter and are treated as a unit that is *in the act of deep striking* not *in the act of deploying from reserves*

[Quixus]

If it is in reserves, then would it not have to roll to disembark when using skies of fury? Therefore, if you failed the reserve roll (as you must take in order to deploy your reserves) then they cannot deploy at all in that turn, and it is all moot.

No, you are instructed to deploy as if deep striking. Deploying happens after the successful reserve roll. So the unit is treated as if someone has successfully rolled for reserves.

 

The passengers are embarked on the vehicle, and it is the vehicle that would be in the reserves or not.

True, but besides the point.

 

It waives the deep strike rule because anyone can do it, it doesn't need to waive the "reserves rule" because the passengers are only in reserve so long as their transport is. The special deployment is the "as if deep striking" meaning when they deploy, they roll for scatter and are treated as a unit that is *in the act of deep striking* not *in the act of deploying from reserves*

No, you assume something that the rules don't say. You are not given permission to waive that rule. You are only given permission to deploy that it as if it were deep striking. To be deep striking a unit must have started the game in reserves. Combining the two means the unit must be treated as if it was in reserves.

[Rottimus]

I said I was done but damn...your logic is flawed.... utterly.

 

First off: "No, you are instructed to deploy as if deep striking. Deploying happens after the successful reserve roll. So the unit is treated as if someone has successfully rolled for reserves." 

 

The above? You're just making stuff up now... You are creating sub-rules to justify your own weird interpretation. 

 

A first turn use of Gate of Infinity is illegal then... seeing as you cannot USE reserves until turn 2 unless something SPECIFICALLY allows you waive that rule. You claim deepstriking is always reserves... hence Gate of infinity can't be used until turn 2. <- which is convoluted interpretation of the rules

 

If what you saying were true, that all deepstriking is always from reserve. There would be a rule stating that such deepstriking need not roll for reserves each time. That also brings up all sorts of problems regarding +1 or -1 to reserve rolls, interceptor and other wargear that affects reserves etc.

 

Also, are you saying gate of infinity, veil of darkness etc units can be intercepted? - Interceptor specifically says 'from reserve'. I veil of darkness 10 warriors from one side of the board to right in front of your aegis line and quad cannon... can you intercept them?

 

Doesn't matter how much you argue.... You'd get away with exactly ZERO of this because the community as a whole recognises the difference between deepstriking via wargear/other means and Deepstriking from Reserve.

 

There are MULTIPLE instances where this is made very clear.

[frozenjordan]

This discussion should have ended long time ago...

 

I've been checking up to see if anyone would still respond to you Quix...

 

It's been explained countless times to you so logically there is no room for interpretation. Unfortunately, you are mixing rules together which is confusing you, although I can see how it might have happened it doesn't dismiss the fact that it's been explained to you and confirmed by others. Now you are just arguing.

 

You asked for these guys for their help on this matter and they provided you with an answer. The right one. Accept it.

[Quixus]

@frozenjordan: I did not ask that question. Even though your opinion probably fits with the RAI of the situation, I don't believe the exclusion of Skies of Fury in Augur Triangulation is RAW. The difference of opinion lies in the question whether we remove requirements inherent in the deep strike rules for Skies of Fury to work or whether we treat the requirements as met for it to do what the rules explicitly tell us to do. I see no explicit permission for the former so I assume the latter.

 

@Rottimus:
I think we at least agree that normal deep striking requires:

1. All models in the unit to have the deep strike rule
2. The unit must start the game in reserves
3. The player must make a successful reserves roll to be allowed to deploy the unit.

Now Skies of Fury works somewhat differently than normal deep striking but uses those rules. I will show you how those requirements are met with Skies of Fury:

1. Skies of Fury allows the embarked unit (regardless of special rules) to use Skies of Fury, so this is met. "If the Stormraven Gunship has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:" So the requirement is not waived but explicitly met by the rules.
2. No rule (unless you finally quote it) removes that requirement. By explicitly allowing you to "deploy the squad as if it were Deep Striking onto that point" this rule comes into effect with all the rest of the DS rules. If the unit weren't in deep strike reserves it couldn't deploy deep strike. Since Skies of Fury rule explicitly allowed deployment the squad must be treated as having started in reserves.
3. This requirement isn't waived either (again unless I miss an explicit removal), but since the time of the deployment is given in the skies of fury rule, it is clear that the unit must count as having passed the reserve rule. "If the Stormraven Gunship has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:"

 

Gate of Infinity works on turn 1 because there is no restriction on using psychic powers in turn 1 and the rule explicitly tells us to perform the move immediately.  But as with units deploying via Skies of Fury the gated unit also counts as having started in reserves and having passed the reserve roll and locator beacons (and teleport homers in case of a TDA psyker attachetd to a TDA squad) would help. 

[Rottimus]

Ok, I disagree but fine.

 

And what about veil of darkness? Do you get to intercept a veil of darknessing warrior squad?

[Lucumon]

 

The right one. Accept it.

 

Whoah there, no need to break out your internet black belt.

 

Edit: This is a discussion on rules of plastic army men... let's not lose our heads. Sharp language and condescension will get the get a mod's melta-gun warmed up and break down the community.  I've enjoyed reading other's thoughts on both sides as steel sharpens steel... I don't enjoy people being insulting when there are conflicting views.  This is a community, not reddit.

[frozenjordan]

Didn't mean to sound that harsh...just feels like the discussion has been going in circles at this point.

[Quixus]

Ok, I disagree but fine.

 

And what about veil of darkness? Do you get to intercept a veil of darknessing warrior squad?

It's the same thing as Gate of Infinity. The rule explicitly tells us that the bearer and the unit (regardless whether it has the DS rule or not as an IC can join any infantry unit) arrives immediately (counts as having passed the reserve roll) using the DS rules (i.e. counting as having started in reserves, rolling for scatter, using the mishap table etc.)

 

I think there is a dysfunction in the wording of both rules though. It tells us that the character and his unit "immediately arrive anywhere on the board using the rules for Deep Strike." If you use the rules for deep strike, there is a chance that the unit does not arrive immediately on the board (rolling a 1 or a 4-6 on the mishap table), which the codex/rulebook explicitly says.  Because of the codex taking precedence over the rule book, necrons cannot be destroyed or placed in ongoing reserves with veil of darkness, but we have no instructions what to do in that case. With gate of infinity it is even murkier because we don't even know which rule takes precedence. On top of the aforementioned problem the rules don't tell us how the unit can come out of ongoing reserves again.

[Rottimus]

Do you get to intercept a veil of darknessing warrior squad?

[Quixus]

Yup. No interceptor fire on Gate of Infinity though because interceptor fire must happen at the end of the movement phase and GoI happens in the psychic phase.

[Rottimus]

So your saying Yes, you get to fire interceptor at a veil of darkness squad.

 

Good luck actually convincing anyone you can do that. Nobody plays that way because (it's wrong for one) and... lo and behold, people see a clear difference between deep-striking and regular Reserves/Deep Strike Reserves.

 

You haven't convinced me. That's because you are pulling out this idea that all deepstrikes = Move into reserves, auto pass a reserve roll, and then enter table as if they were Deep Strike Reserves. <- This is massively convoluted and not RAW. It's RAW + a whole extra sequence that isn't there. You're assuming that's what happens for some reason even tho there are multiple examples given where that simple isn't the case (see Heroic intervention + Skies of Fury, See the practical use of Veil of Darkness etc)

 

Either way, if you want to go down the RAW road: Skies of Fury states: Deploy the squad as if it were deepstriking. It's NOT deepstriking, it a squad deploying as if it were..... as if it were...

 

At this point it comes down PURELY to interpretation of language and based on how the game works and the intention of the rule... well... you know my opinion on it.

[Fahlnor]

O.o

[LutherMax]

It's very clear to me - any unit can disembark via Skies of Fury. Use of the term "deep striking" is causing some confusion obviously but, as others have mentioned, the bit that makes it clear is "as if". Think the idea is they come down on cables or whatever. If only units with the deep strike rule were able to do it I think that would be explicitly specified in the SoF rule.

[Brother apocalyptic]

Well, Id say that the entire rule is moot.. in the rule for Skies of Fury it claims that you need to nominate one point over which the stormraven has moved, for the squad to disembark on.

 

The mooty part is that there is no model/unit it the codex thats called Stormraven. We only have access to the Stormraven Gunship, which aint the same thing.

 

So Im with Quixus on this one.. Skies of Blood is a moot rule until we get a new codex or FAQ....

[Arkangilos]

^ Please tell me you are joking...

[LutherMax]

I'm pretty sure he is :)

 

The funny thing is, Skies of Fury is only really useful for a shooty unit like tacticals or sternguard as you can't assault that turn - but, a drop pod is a much better / safer way of doing it anyway. That's why I'd say it's a moot point. If I have something in my Stormraven you better believe it's close combat orientated and is making use of the Assault Vehicle rule.