Something funny I found

[incinerator950]

So what do we have here, another altoholic? Greetings I am Tenebris and I roll on average 20 characters in a month. Damn you Skyrim. To me the fabled high levels are just that, a fable.

 

What can I say, creativity can be a curse too.

My roommate made a dozen DAO characters because he didn't like something about the character.

 

I've made half a dozen Warband concepts because I can't come up with a single item.

[Gree]

The Imperium can't beat Abaddon simply because the Imperium is meant to lose. All the reinforcements in the galaxy, the rebuilding of Space Marine Legions, another Sebastian Thor/Macharius, all wouldn't really matter at the end of the day. Abaddon wins. Simple as that.

The Imperium's still around in the Ciaphas Cain novels isn't it? Cain writes his memoirs in M42 right?

 

Any setting built on the one sides ability to do whatever it wants while the other has no freedom of maneuver to mount a defense is a weak setting and impossible.

You do realize that the Imperium has complete orbital domination of the space lanes right? That means they totally have the ability to maneuver and mount a coordinated defence. Like, during the 13th Black Crusade results, it was an utter curbstomp in favour of the Imperium in terms of space lane control.

 

I don't think it can be overstated on just how much of a massive advantage that is. The Imperium can freely ship in reinforcements without major opposition, blockade Chaos reinforcements easily and annihilate Chaos forces from orbit at piecemeal without an effective counter. Chaos doesn't really have an effective counter to do and in a sci-fi setting, they can't really get anywhere without an effective navy.

 

It's not Germany in 1944 or The Confederacy in 1865, rather the situation around the Eye is probably closer to the Pacific in 1945, with the US Navy and it's island hopping campaign, except the naval advantage is even more absurdly one-sided in favour of the dominant side. All the Imperium has to do is simply let Chaos forces stranded on planets ''wither on the vine'' and annihilate them from orbit, all while shipping in their reinforcements where necessary.

[Chaeron]

 

The Imperium can't beat Abaddon simply because the Imperium is meant to lose. All the reinforcements in the galaxy, the rebuilding of Space Marine Legions, another Sebastian Thor/Macharius, all wouldn't really matter at the end of the day. Abaddon wins. Simple as that.

The Imperium's still around in the Ciaphas Cain novels isn't it? Cain writes his memoirs in M42 right?

 

"He was in active service in the last century of M41, and was over 200 years old when he was recalled into service during the 13th Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler, and it is certain that he survived more than a quarter of a century into M42. " - Lex

 

But yeah, 'Cain Archive' is from 005.M42.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The Imperium can't beat Abaddon simply because the Imperium is meant to lose. All the reinforcements in the galaxy, the rebuilding of Space Marine Legions, another Sebastian Thor/Macharius, all wouldn't really matter at the end of the day. Abaddon wins. Simple as that.

The Imperium's still around in the Ciaphas Cain novels isn't it? Cain writes his memoirs in M42 right? 

Any setting built on the one sides ability to do whatever it wants while the other has no freedom of maneuver to mount a defense is a weak setting and impossible.

You do realize that the Imperium has complete orbital domination of the space lanes right? That means they totally have the ability to maneuver and mount a coordinated defence. Like, during the 13th Black Crusade results, it was an utter curbstomp in favour of the Imperium in terms of space lane control.I don't think it can be overstated on just how much of a massive advantage that is. The Imperium can freely ship in reinforcements without major opposition, blockade Chaos reinforcements easily and annihilate Chaos forces from orbit at piecemeal without an effective counter. Chaos doesn't really have an effective counter to do and in a sci-fi setting, they can't really get anywhere without an effective navy.It's not Germany in 1944 or The Confederacy in 1865, rather the situation around the Eye is probably closer to the Pacific in 1945, with the US Navy and it's island hopping campaign, except the naval advantage is even more absurdly one-sided in favour of the dominant side. All the Imperium has to do is simply let Chaos forces stranded on planets ''wither on the vine'' and annihilate them from orbit, all while shipping in their reinforcements where necessary.

That certainly may have been true, at one point. But we both known anything you're using as supporting evidence is being ignored by ADB, because he doesn't want to be held to the result of an 11 year old, 6 week long campaign. Since he is el capitan of the HMS Abaddon now, nothing about Cadia will be 'correct' until he touches ink to parchment. He may even come in and say that not true, and there are plenty of 'Abaddons' and '13th Black Crusades' and they are all true, which he does from time to time. We both know that doesn't really matter either and it's him being modest. The Imperium is dead because the guy writing the novels about it's death is telling you it's dead. It's like JK Rowling telling you Harry Potter is gonna bite it years in advance. The studio is so worthless they won't even acknowledge his work and just steam roll over it like they've done before, but we all know which Abaddon and which Cadia is going to more popular.

[Gree]

That certainly may have been true, at one point. But we both known anything you're using as supporting evidence is being ignored by ADB, because he doesn't want to be held to the result of an 11 year old, 6 week long campaign.

And yet there is nothing in the newer lore that explicitly retcons it, no matter how much Games Workshop likes to pretend that the 13th Black Crusade wasn't an anti-climax just like Storm of Chaos.

 

Since he is el capitan of the HMS Abaddon now, nothing about Cadia will be 'correct' until he touches ink to parchment.

It's about as correct as anything else in 40k.

 

The Imperium is dead because the guy writing the novels about it's death is telling you it's dead. It's like JK Rowling telling you Harry Potter is gonna bite it years in advance.

And yet Games Workshop hasn't officially disowned the Ciaphas Cain novels then. Now unless you have been recently appointed head of GW IP, forgive me if I take your assertions with a teensy pinch of salt.

 

I'm not really concerned about proclamations of doom and the end from Games Workshop. It's a marketing gimmick, nothing more. We had similar promises from them in the leadup to the Eye of Terror campaign about changing the setting forever, and that quite quietly ignored later on.

 

The studio is so worthless they won't even acknowledge his work and just steam roll over it like they've done before, but we all know which Abaddon and which Cadia is going to more popular.

The latter most certainly. You think GW is going to retcon away the largest Guard player base and the Guard poster army? Nah. How many Black Legion players do you think are out there as opposed to Cadian players?

 

Have you spent time on other forums with the wider sci-fi community? You might get a sampling bias with Bolter and Chainsword, but otherwise on other internet forums and sci-fi message boards, the 40k fanbase has different opinions. Generally in my experience Abaddon is generally ridiculed. Look at 4chan where Abaddon is regarded as an incompetent moron and Creed is lionised as a memetic tactical genius. It's the same as on a bunch of other sci-fi sites and 40k forums.

 

It's not a blanket statement certainly, but in my experience, the non-Chaos fanbase generally has more regard for Cadia than Abaddon.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think we should check the thermostat in hell, because you and I are agreeing. Yes, the studio won't explicitly retcon anything. Yes, anything is true in 40k. Yes, the wider internet community is vehemently opposed to Abaddon being a badass. As far as ADBs Abaddon is concerned, we know where the end result will take us. My point is that it's sad what will be a subjectively 'better' version will be as true as a timeline blurb in a codex.

[KrautScientist]

 

(...)

The studio writes no real victories or losses. It doesn't want to commit to something that may 'offend' a player from buying a character model. Thats why they are such mind-numbingly weak story tellers and worthless as a creative body. To put such spineless people, frightened by the fear people won't buy their toys, into the position of a creativity (where you stock up on talent, if anyone paid attention to business school) is ridiculous. 

 

 

This cuts both ways, however: I love to criticise their writing as much as the next guy, but you really have to ask yourself what kind of unpleasable fanbase led to the studio actively fearing that kind of commitment. I think we need look no further than this very thread to see that they have really painted themselves into a corner here, because whatever they do will never, ever be good enough for us -- and I really don't envy them that task, with all of the world-class storytellers on the Internet scrutinising their every move...

 

 

One other aspect I would like to call attention to is that I don't believe there was ever this great plan, and then the setting suddenly went astray at some point due to sub-par writing: When Rogue Trader was created, back in the day, much of what makes up the setting today was only mentioned in the broadest strokes (if at all), but what was always there was the "five minutes to midnight" scenario. Couple that with the fact that 40k was originally envisioned as a satire of every dystopic scenario in existence, all rolled into one and then turned up to eleven, and you have your answer as to why the Imperium falls apart when judged by "realistic" criteria -- because it was never intended to be even the slightest bit realistic back then, and all the authors since have just been trying to paper over the obvious cracks in that premise, because people have started taking this universe very seriously at some point.

 

And you know what? It's okay. It still works -- at least for me. It's overnarrated and clumsy and eclectic and contradictory as all heck, and no two BL authors can ever seem to agree on anything, really, but you just have to roll with the punches sometimes -- or am I making things to easy for myself here?

[Forté]

Anyone care to remember the topic and get back to it. A mud slinging contest is going to go nowhere fast.

[Kol Saresk]

Anyone care to remember the topic and get back to it. A mud slinging contest is going to go nowhere fast.

At which point, it was being pointed out how Renegades were being labeled as Legions back in 3rd edition and while funny, if anyone thought it was just something GW did just because, or if it was the result of sub-par writing.

 

EDIT: I'm just re-emphasizing what the topic is.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

(...)

The studio writes no real victories or losses. It doesn't want to commit to something that may 'offend' a player from buying a character model. Thats why they are such mind-numbingly weak story tellers and worthless as a creative body. To put such spineless people, frightened by the fear people won't buy their toys, into the position of a creativity (where you stock up on talent, if anyone paid attention to business school) is ridiculous. 

 

 

This cuts both ways, however: I love to criticise their writing as much as the next guy, but you really have to ask yourself what kind of unpleasable fanbase led to the studio actively fearing that kind of commitment. I think we need look no further than this very thread to see that they have really painted themselves into a corner here, because whatever they do will never, ever be good enough for us -- and I really don't envy them that task, with all of the world-class storytellers on the Internet scrutinising their every move...

 

It reads like you took issue with my dislike of the studio, and you're one of my all time favorite modeling genius', so I want to explain it in a more thorough fashion to help my point across. I claim no higher truth than my own perception of the setting. Everything should always be understood to be my own opinions, and not an argument that a larger arc exists that the studio just doesn't have the talent to tap into. I do not claim to be a writer or storyteller (as some people claim on this board with no published work to their name), but I do reserve the right to criticize a product I consume when it is not to my liking. I consume the 40K setting, and in the past couple of years it has not been to my tastes. 

 

 

One other aspect I would like to call attention to is that I don't believe there was ever this great plan, and then the setting suddenly went astray at some point due to sub-par writing: When Rogue Trader was created, back in the day, much of what makes up the setting today was only mentioned in the broadest strokes (if at all), but what was always there was the "five minutes to midnight" scenario. Couple that with the fact that 40k was originally envisioned as a satire of every dystopic scenario in existence, all rolled into one and then turned up to eleven, and you have your answer as to why the Imperium falls apart when judged by "realistic" criteria -- because it was never intended to be even the slightest bit realistic back then, and all the authors since have just been trying to paper over the obvious cracks in that premise, because people have started taking this universe very seriously at some point.

 

People take the universe seriously because they invest a lot of time, energy, and money into the setting. Hobbies have become a lot more than pastimes in the last two decades, they have moved on to symbolize peoples agency as human beings. Gamer culture, car culture, etc all have evolved into defining traits for people. Why that is, I don't know, psych/sociology isn't exactly my cup of tea. It has a lot to do with trans-national interconnectivity provided by the internet. This forum is the perfect example of how many people from wildly different places log in and become part of the same 'team', all because they are discussing a hobby. Granted, 40K doesn't help build Kantian Cosmopolitan Utopias where everyone is united by their love of a satirical dystopia, but I know if I travel the world, I can always reach out to 'forum friends' to meet up for a beer and conversation in a place where I might otherwise know no one else. 

 

 
 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Anyone care to remember the topic and get back to it. A mud slinging contest is going to go nowhere fast.

At which point, it was being pointed out how Renegades were being labeled as Legions back in 3rd edition and while funny, if anyone thought it was just something GW did just because, or if it was the result of sub-par writing.

 

 

Which was the point of my posts. The studio lacks the will to have continuity, and I don't find that to be funny. 

[KrautScientist]

Anyone care to remember the topic and get back to it. A mud slinging contest is going to go nowhere fast.

At which point, it was being pointed out how Renegades were being labeled as Legions back in 3rd edition and while funny, if anyone thought it was just something GW did just because, or if it was the result of sub-par writing.

EDIT: I'm just re-emphasizing what the topic is.

Yes, exactly, and when all is said and done, this is what we are discussing, right? Whether this slightly iffy "mislabeling" is a symptom for a bigger problem. And whether it was a minor slipup, a major slipup, a conscious decision or even a part of GW's dastardly plan to ruin our fun

Seriously, though: I am sorry if my post came across as mud slinging, because that was not my intention: But whenever I see threads exploding like this, I just feel the need to jump in and argue in favour of cutting the studio some slack every now and then, because I feel sorry for the heaps of abuse.

@ Marshal Rohr: Thanks for the kind words RE: my modeling -- rest assured that I wasn't taking issue with you personally! I will admit, however, that I don't fully agree with your point. Here's why:

People take the universe seriously because they invest a lot of time, energy, and money into the setting. Hobbies have become a lot more than pastimes in the last two decades, they have moved on to symbolize peoples agency as human beings.

Absolutely! I realise now that my original argument may have been poorly worded: When I said people had begun to take the setting seriously, I didn't mean they started getting invested in it as a pasttime, but rather that they started forgetting about the darkly humorous original intention: When you remember that 40k was originally intended, at least in part, as a satire, that explains the lack of realism. But if you approach the setting in a more straight-faced way, the inconsistencies and lack of realism might start to bother you. But it seems like people today have mostly forgotten about the settings's roots in satire, and so they start expecting a universe that makes sense -- and retconning realism into a setting as zany as 40k cannot be an enviable task, especially when dozens of writers are having a go at it at the same time, with the fans and critics closely keeping watch all the while -- I think they deserve a bit of sympathy for that, but then maybe I am just too soft

Oh, and I totally agree on the beneficial nature of online contacts with other hobbyists -- in fact, this part of the hobby has become one of its most important aspects for me!

[Kol Saresk]

Eh, yes and no. Let me rephrase it to how the mods are seeing it, discuss whether you think the naming of Renegade warbands as being Traitor Legions specifically is a symptom of how GW views the relationship between the Renegades and the Traitors, or is it simply a result of sub-par writing?

As to everything else from the disposition of Imperial forces at Cadia, how we are able to fit into the background and whether or not we are better at defining the background than the people who are creating it and how our views and opinions clash with the background are what the mods and admins are seeing as off-topic and are what should move to either PM or a new topic if the discussions are wanting to continue.

And I say this as someone who is guilty of participating in the aforementioned off topic discussions.

 

[oldschoolsavant]

As an oldbeard RT fella, I'll say this much:

Arguing about a page filling fluff piece, with 15 years of hindsight and expanded lore, is a trifle.....silly ?

Whoever wrote it had no idea of where we'd be today, and probably didn't have the remit to account for such, so why all the froth ? The use of 'legions' was probably due to differentiation from loyal 'chapters', and to acknowledge their origin. Hell, there was probably a warband of 50 CSM who referred to themselves as a legion just to sound more menacing and important.

[Leif Bearclaw]

That certainly may have been true, at one point. But we both known anything you're using as supporting evidence is being ignored by ADB, because he doesn't want to be held to the result of an 11 year old, 6 week long campaign. Since he is el capitan of the HMS Abaddon now, nothing about Cadia will be 'correct' until he touches ink to parchment. He may even come in and say that not true, and there are plenty of 'Abaddons' and '13th Black Crusades' and they are all true, which he does from time to time. We both know that doesn't really matter either and it's him being modest. The Imperium is dead because the guy writing the novels about it's death is telling you it's dead. It's like JK Rowling telling you Harry Potter is gonna bite it years in advance. The studio is so worthless they won't even acknowledge his work and just steam roll over it like they've done before, but we all know which Abaddon and which Cadia is going to more popular.

And here we have the crux of what rubs me the wrong way with 'modern' 40k/Chaos/Abaddon fluff. It just seems so one sided, with the Imperium, constantly getting screwed, and the only victories it can claim trending towards the pyrrhic. Which is why the exchange between Talos and Abaddon in Soul Hunter was one of my favourite scenes in any Black Library book. It presented the 'other side', a vision of the Traitor Legions (used here as the Traitor equivalent of Adeptus Astartes, which seemed to be the norm a decade ago and hence the nature of the pictures that started this thread) that was just as messed up as the Imperial. Unlike the 'normal' Imperial perspective, this time we got to see the Imperium as antagonist, an immensely powerful force that can and will utterly annihilate the protagonists if they're too dumb/slow/unlucky to stay just one step ahead. While the Imperium may be a monolithic barely competent bureaucracy, Chaos is a debased, fractious mob. Neither side is even approaching the heights they reached ten millennia ago. Both are fallen, and hence neither can ever achieve victory. Of course, that was apparently not what ADB was going for, and Talos was meant to just be delusional .

But to me, that image of everyone locked in an eternal war, with no light at the end of the tunnel for any side, just surviving until the next crisis is a far better representation of the 'in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war' tag line than 'the 'bad' guys have already won, it's just a matter of time'.

Edit: It appears I may have taken too long to write this, and added to the thread derailment. So I'll reiterate my stance on the OP. 'Traitor Legions' was just the catch all term for CSMs during this period of GW's history, hence the titles on those pages. Odds on, if EoT was redone in the present, those sections would be titled Traitor/Renegade Astartes.

[Trevak Dal]

 

I've seen you on the Failbaddon train long before Talon of Horus. There's literally an entire thread where you sad he was Failbaddon.

If you wish to interpret certain comments in a certain way, then that's your choice. I don't really remember much about that time period, but then against I don't care much about those threads anymore. It was quite a while ago and my beliefs on the hobby have changed greatly since then.

 

Imperial Armour: Warmachines of the Lost and the Damned. Printed in 2014.

Oh, Games Workshop certainly wants to make Abaddon seem successful, but that doesn't change certain facts, such as the vast logistical superiority of the Imperium, or the complete dominance of the space lanes at the end of the Eye of Terror campaign. Stuff that GW just chose to quietly ignore in favour of pushing forward their write-up.

 

I'm mean, I appreciate their attempts to not make Abaddon the Cobra Commander of 40k, but I don't think they are succeeding at it.

 

But by all means, feel free to create a separate topic linking this life changing argument.

If you wish me to link to the forum and the argument in question, then I can certainly do that, although I don't know what you plan to do about it, unless you want to register on that forum and argue with the poster in question about Abaddon.

 

It literally would not be the first time you tried to explain how Abaddon is a failure when only three of the Black crusades were defeated in a decisive military battle and the rest are all "Abaddon left" and the Thirteenth is "an ongoing campaign the Imperium is just barely holding off."

I've already pointed out the manifold flaws in said assertions before. I don't particularly see the point in arguing about it in the Chaos forums. It's like going to the Space Wolf forums and arguing that Russ totally sucked. It's an uphill argument against a forum filled with fans of that faction. I really don't see any point in wasting my time arguing with hardcore fans when I have better things to do with my hobby.

 

I'm trying to just leave it at that, by not trying to start something, but you seem intent on provoking me for some reason.

 

Many of those reasons are why I had such a hard time settling on a Warband.  The Alpha Legion/Red Corsair way of war is the most consistently profitable way of war most of the time.  Raiding and Guerrilla conflicts against a numerically lesser foe, or one that cannot easily get reinforcements.

 

I ultimately chose Black Legion because, most of my ideas were "Alpha Legion-except" and "World Eaters-but" and "Night Lords, However," so I said :cuss it I'm basically Black Legion anyways, and ADB made them seem less :cussty to me.  I don't use Abaddon (can't find the points for him, and he's kind of hard to put in a unit...and he's Vegeta small)

[Kol Saresk]

......... Forte. Tenebris. I give this thread into your capable hands. May you use a sedative before you melta it into oblivion.

[incinerator950]

Hellstorm Bombardment works just as effectively.

 

And screw you sideways, now I want to learn how to paint orange.

[Tenebris]

The thread is on lockdown till Monday 26/01/2015. Cool down you all and think it through. As I can say this is neither an uphill battle nor a banter on who has it bigger. Said that, the very nature of the topic is to "speculate" on the assertion of Warband and Legion and the many cross references which neither support nor decline the nigh complete shattering of the legions of old. 

 

So lock down till Monday. Prepare your arguments for then. 

 

Kol and Gree, I want your "arguments" on my PM to better understand the history between you two. You have time till Monday. 

[Tenebris]

Unlocked. I trust you will behave.