Corrupted Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Anyone else taking a hard look at assault cannon now that 7th has been out for a while? For a long time now I've fielded a healthy amount of assault cannons, they were a nicely rounded weapon only suffering in the range department. Now though, in 7th with the changes to the damage table they don't deliver the way they use to against vehicles. This is also coming at a point where I'm reassessing how I'm going to deal with AV 13 & 14 targets. On the whole I find myself phasing out assault cannons in general from my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Where were you using them? They're still effective in Deathwing squads where they provide a good dual role and where you have fists/hammers to take on heavier armour if needs be. But you're right - prefer meltas on speeders any day. Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 In deathwing squads I find myself shifting towards cyclones on pretty much all my squads, I'm finding cyclone + SB wins out vs assault cannon, and my other squads are already cyclone + THSS. I'm also weighing out a plasma cannon vs assault cannon recently. I've retired my last assault cannon speeders, thats been a long time coming though. I find myself thinking even longer and harder about putting that crusader in my list, hurricane bolters seen to do less and less with each edition now the assault cannon does less. Without the 'dakka banner' a crusaders fire power is getting more and more lackluster. Last, and actually least, I love the look of assault cannon razorbacks but now can't find any way to justify them over Las/Plas. I've noticed my lists went from containing about six assault cannons, to me stripping out last few in favor of other weapons. Which I feel is a shame if for no other reason then assault cannons are cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Moridius Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I still field assault cannons in a pure RW force to deal with hordes, tornado speeders put out a lot of good strength AP 4 shots that mow down light infantry, bikes with meltas and MM ABs take care of the heavy stuff. Honestly havent played with more than a single DW squad in a while so cant comment on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarFromSam Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Was thinking the same as a what's been posted, but they still make me proud on DS DW squads twin linked with split fire reliably puts damage on vehicles, and wounds on MC. Not to mention the ID on units post black knights. Have been wanting to try a plasma Canon, but am terrified of over heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I agree, ACs have been getting steadily left behind in the arms race. Most marine weapons have the same issues though, we carry the finest small arms the Imperium can produce in the form of the most sacred bolter and every tom dick and Harry xenos gets more range, greater strength and/or higher rates of fire for nix on non elite units. Not trying to devolve this thread into a woe is me one but the arms race is leaving the Imperium behind, it is a shame that often it's just the points cost that doesn't reflect the weapons ability well. I do like to take the AC on DW squads when I play my 'tactical' termie lists, they support the 24" midrange storm/Hurricane bolter war best of the other choices. Their main issue then is as you say range, the squad is too specialised and if it can't get to that magical range it is impotent. Tau are great at denying that, then they punish you out to 30". I have been swapping ACs out for Heavy Flamers a lot lately to some success (cheaper and nastier), if you can get to 24" due to LR or DS then you can probably get to 8". Then I obviously need to use other weapons for opening boxes ;) Ideally the CML is still the best all round choice, the PC is as always too hit and miss, if they fixed it somehow I would be happy stobz. It seems I'll have to buy the next shiny toy with some yet to be invented ancient tech (Grav or Centurians etc) to keep GD in business and to keep my boys competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The PC in 2nd Edition was something like the PSB of the LSV... Instead of the focused/dispersed mode it has a high power mode (you have to wait one turn to shoot again) and a low power mode (you can shoot every turn) Giving the PC carried by DWT a dual mode focused (36" heavy2 no blast) and dispersed (like now) would ne good... The AC is a nice weapon cause it's rending, it's Heavy4 and has S6... The main Problem are range (24" is clearly a bit too short) and costs... But about the Imperial wargear we enter in a minefield cause the costs and stats of dozen weapons are shared through several codices, supplements and dataslates... With eldar is easy to change the shuriken weapons cause pnly craftwolrders and harlequins use them... We must live with it (or to go all in HH where there I only loyals vs rebels and they use the same wargear)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 a little off topic but I really wish you could put an assault cannon on an attack bike, it seems like it would really fit well there and would definatly see them used alot more. If you payed the same upgrade price as you do for speeders I don't see it as being really OP or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 a little off topic but I really wish you could put an assault cannon on an attack bike, it seems like it would really fit well there and would definatly see them used alot more. If you payed the same upgrade price as you do for speeders I don't see it as being really OP or anything.The attack bike is another problem GW had about SM... Possible that in 20 years that this model exists nobody was Able to give it other weapon options? They did it For the LS i cannot see why they cant do it For the attack bike... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 Assault cannon and plasma cannon options, but then we better be able to take them in squadrons of their own... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Oooh yeah! Attack bike Plasma Cannon squadrons, me likey :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 They may not be that effective, but c'mon man. BBVVVRRRRRMMMMMMMMM! You get a bullet! And you get a bullet! Everyone gets a bullet! Sexiness aside, the LRC looks about as under-armed as ever these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 They do keep putting bandages on things instead of fixing the actual problems, it's time for a radical recosting of things across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 They do keep putting bandages on things instead of fixing the actual problems, it's time for a radical recosting of things across the board. Yeah, that'll happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I still use assault cannons. They are still a good anti-tank weapon against light vehicles because they strip off HP's. Since you can kill only on a 7+ the AP3 of the cyclone is as good as the AP4 of the AC, so against AV10 and AV11 I prefer AC's. Also I do like that I can reliably put out 4 shots against infantry instead of relying on a blast. The con is that the AC has half the range, but with some carefull placement the range is not a big issue. I agree they seem lacklustre but they are still an option for me becuse they still work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Exactly, if anything the Cyclones are worse now that they cant one shot kill vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Hmm... Bring back the Tank Hunter option for DW. That'll help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Anyone else taking a hard look at assault cannon now that 7th has been out for a while? For a long time now I've fielded a healthy amount of assault cannons, they were a nicely rounded weapon only suffering in the range department. Now though, in 7th with the changes to the damage table they don't deliver the way they use to against vehicles. This is also coming at a point where I'm reassessing how I'm going to deal with AV 13 & 14 targets. On the whole I find myself phasing out assault cannons in general from my list. You shouldn't have been relying on assault cannons to take down AV 13/14 vehicles in the first place. What they are good for is to take down AV 10/11 vehicles and tough infantry with 4+ or worse armor saves like Chaos Spawn and such. There is literally no reason to make assualt cannons better at anything than they already are. Yes, I know. If only there were some sort of weapons that could do stuff to AV 13/14, like lascannons, missile launchers, cyclones/typhoons, meltaguns, mulit-meltas, power fists, thunder hammers, chainfists, and dreadnought power fists. Pick a better weapon for the job, or do you think that the game really needs a 4- shot weapon that can reasonably shred 250 point Land Raiders in a single go, and that isn't a super-heavy/titan class weapon? I am pretty sure most people don't think so. The vehicle damage table wasn't about gimping weapons, but about making vehicles sturdy enough to counter balance the massive gimping they've taken since 2E, which is much slower movement, a lack of independent firing capability for all weapons, ordnance weapons disallowing/heavily nerfing other weapons firing...the list is too big for me to want to go into it completely. The vehicle rules are still pretty much insensible and suck, so what we obviously need is an assault cannon that rips them to shreds more easily, marginallziing them that much more. Really? Do we? I still field assault cannons, just not as the "end-all, be-all" weapon, which no weapon should be. Take other weapons. because...GASP!!!...that is why there are different weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I still take them on DW, Venerable Dreadnoughts (if not multi melta, but the old metal Venerable Dreadnought will always use that Assault Cannon since he looked cool with that weapon), and Landspeeder, cuz i just love my HB+AC Tornadoes.... more so than my typhoons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 The vehicle damage table wasn't about gimping weapons, but about making vehicles sturdy enough to counter balance the massive gimping they've taken since 2E, The way you frame it make it seem like this is somehow out of GWs control? Last time I checked they have complete control of the rule set. If they had wanted to fix vehicles they wouldn't have kept the HP system the way it is. Many, many marine units and pieces of wargear has been static since 3rd or 4th while the xenos and other imperial factions have been updated and upgraded. Heavy 4 is no longer a reasonable abstraction for the rate of fire we expect from an assault cannon. Plasma cannons, all bolt weapons, chain swords, auto cannons and assault cannons are all in need of improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corrupted Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 I used assault cannons vs AV 13/14 because it gave me a statically favorably chance at destroying my targe... What they're good for now is taking out light vehicles and elite infantry. The vehicle role is better suited to missile launchers and auto cannon, which are significantly cheaper. The anti infantry is better filled by plasma, which as Dark Angels, for better or worse, we have in droves.... I'm not looking for assault cannons to be broken. If GW is going to reduce the power of a weapon or a unit I would just like to see a point adjustment to go along with it. If they want the assault cannon to be mowing down infantry and not blowing up land raiders adjust the codex so the weapon can fill that role. Right now assault cannons are too expensive for what they do and can't be fielded in sufficient numbers. One assault cannon hear and there doesn't give me the weight of fire I need to effectively deal with a target unit. That was different when a twin linked assault cannon could drop a raider or hammer head. If GW wants me using assault cannons vs infantry I need units that can take more than one and for reasonable point cost. It might just be wishlisting, but grey knights got it with psycannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I think you are being greedy. For a while the assault cannon was bit too good againt vehicles, as were most weapons. Did that mean the assault cannon costed significantly more, or that vehicles costed significantly less? Things are pretty balanced now in that regard simply due the vehicle damage chart changes. Heavy weapons are still fairly dangerous, but not quite as much as before, meaning vehicles might actually have a chance to do something before being destroyed. While still good, the assault cannon is no longer the "OMG IT IS SO GOOD HOW COULD YOU NOT TAKE A BILLION OF THEM?!" weapon that it once was, the victims of which rightly bitched about the cost an availability of. I think a weapon upgrade that can potentially smoke much more expensive models in a turn of firing is in no way underpowered or overcosted. You just have to shoot them at the right targets, which for assault cannons has not been AV 13/14 vehicles for much longer than just 7E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I think the problem is not assault cannons but you are stuck in the past. ;) The argument you are making can be made also for the heavy bolter. Sure you can't spam 2 assault cannons per 5 terminators but it's been like that since ages. You can however have a squad of 5 Tornados that you couldn't before. If you want to spam AC's you still can but youhave to find the right unit for it. It's still a 4 shot weapon which is still pretty good vs infantry. It's S6 with randing can still help deal with heavy vehicles despite being ideal to deal with light vehicles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I think the assault cannon price and stat lines are fair, its kinda meant to be a jack of all trades style weapon: the potential exists for it to threaten anything on the table, its just not proficient at one or another as other choices, which IMO is fair. I just wish there was an option to take it on a wider variety of units like oh i dunno ATTACK BIKES, why is this not already a thing. Also how cool would it be to model a tac squad with one guy lugging an assault cannon around on foot, or a whole dev squad full of them :O Its still 24 inch range, dont see how thats game breaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Okay, I'll give in one area. The price on assault cannons for Land Speeders should be 20 points, as it does not perform to quite the level that the typhoon launcher does, which is priced just about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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