Quixus Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I was wondering, are Baal predators still the go to tank for us, now that they are a HS choice like the regular predator? Is twinlinked and two extra shots really worth 30 pts, half range and one less Strength on each shot compared to the fast dakka predator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 TL Assault cannon >>>>>>> single autocannon. An assault cannon is still statistically better at killing AV10 - 12 than a lascannon also, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Nerf to non AP 1-2 weapons for killing AV really put a dampener on assault cannons everywhere. I have no idea how people keep any short ranged tank like the Baal or Vindi alive these days. Even when I take whirlwinds or normal preds that literally hug the table edges they still get hunted down and glanced to death in CC or shot up by a melta, fast or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Take a Sicaran if you can. So much more bang for buck and rear AV12. It's the only tank in my army so survivability - in turn 1 at least - isn't an issue as it gets the choice of terrain for cover or hiding. If my oppo has DS melta I use scouts and the DC to occupy the melta zone as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Short answer: no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatOneMarshal Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Take a Sicaran if you can. So much more bang for buck and rear AV12. It's the only tank in my army so survivability - in turn 1 at least - isn't an issue as it gets the choice of terrain for cover or hiding. If my oppo has DS melta I use scouts and the DC to occupy the melta zone as much as possible. This and what deschanus Maximus said. The Baal predator I feel was sadly much breed in the last codex. It was in a slot with not a lot of competition outside of attack bike and van vets and it had scout. Now it lost all of those and now competed with the auto cannon press who I feel might be better. However both are trumped by the sicarian I feel. The sicarian twice the amount of the predator autocannon and heavy bolter but has like triple the fire power. Throw in a couple of upgrades and it's pretty godly. I'm definelty buying one because it helps my blood angels and templars. Another problem I have with the tank is it's small range. 24 inches is mighty close to your opponent who is free to hit you with plasma and other hull point strippers. And if he has fast movers that also means assualt and melta. @knife and fork I find that having lots of high threat units works well for keeping vindicators alive. Know one is going to target the wee vindicator when you have two av 14 party buses full of angry black templars and an imperial knight running forward. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 No Scout killed Baals for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 In short: Hell Yeah. Long answer: Back when the Baal was FA, there was a reason to take a Dakka Pred. Now, there is none. The only other Predator choice I would ever run is the Lascannon turret Predator because Fast+AV13+48" TLLC is GOOD against EVERYTHING. Even that is incredibly second fiddle to the awesome that is the Dakka Baal Pred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnightmare Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Only had three games with new codex and they have done alright really. Miss the scout though! They still put out a lot of shots did well against orks each time but less so against Sallies, where we also played length of table. I like 'em but the Sicaran trumps them really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Damage-wise, it's the same. It's just less of an auto include now the slot has changed. The loss of Scout simply means we have to use them differently. ... And yes, it sadly competes with a Sicaran :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I think I'll forego the Baals in favour of a unit of assault terminators(yes, I have a spare elite slot!), which reminds me of my earlier lists - more choppy, less shooty. I like the points reductions on them and my heavy support slots are free except for the Raven, but overall units with a focus on melee are more appealing to me. Maybe after a few test games I'll think differently about them, but I quite dislike the loss of scout for now. Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 In short: Hell Yeah. Long answer: Back when the Baal was FA, there was a reason to take a Dakka Pred. Now, there is none. The only other Predator choice I would ever run is the Lascannon turret Predator because Fast+AV13+48" TLLC is GOOD against EVERYTHING. Even that is incredibly second fiddle to the awesome that is the Dakka Baal Pred. Baals just bring more of something BA already have a ton of: anti-infantry. And they don't even do it particularly effectively. If you're going to bother with a 130-ish pts vehicle with a 24 inch gun and exposed AV11 sides, might as well go with a Vindi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I'm not sure why you are so crazy about the vindis. Too easy to stunlock/destroy a single gun tank. Cover is plentiful. Friendly fire issues when playing aggressively. Not very effective vs properly space units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I'm not sure why you are so crazy about the vindis. Too easy to stunlock/destroy a single gun tank. Cover is plentiful. Friendly fire issues when playing aggressively. Not very effective vs properly space units. I'm not "crazy" about them. There are far from one of the best units in the game, BUT they are versatile, and people tend to fear them, which is something you can manipulate. Besides: -For the cost of a Baal, you could always pop a stormbolter on it to cut your chances of having the Demolisher blown off by half. -Cover affects all shooting weapons, so the vindi is not at an inherent disadvantage there. -Adapt your tactics, or adapt your list. Use a more shooty list (bikes + vindies come to mind) -Forcing your opponent to space out is again something you can exploit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Well I just see you suggest them a lot. A single blast weapon is a lot more vulnerable to forced snap fire. The baal will at least have 6 non TL and 4 TL snap shots should it suffer the most common result of the damage table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 True, but it's more of a matter of being generally unimpressed by the other HS choices than being really fully unamoured with the Vindi itself. A snap-firing Baal will get around a single asscannon hit and a single HB hit. It's really not that big of an advantage, objectively speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakkamasta Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I think baals are still good. I have 3 and regularly use 2 in my army lists. Though they arn't absolute powerhouses of shooting, I've found them to be one of the most versatile tanks around due to it being able to take on so many targets effectively, a vindicator at a monstrous creature wont do much, a vindicator cannot even shoot flyers, the baal predator can take on both of these with a decent chance of doing some damage. They are best used with jumper lists as a mobile AV13 wall to block line of sight to my jump troops, the baals provide cover for the marines to cross the board, and the marines act as a counter-assault unit for the predators, this tactic I have found to be very effective and it's won me many games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I think baals are still good. I have 3 and regularly use 2 in my army lists. Though they arn't absolute powerhouses of shooting, I've found them to be one of the most versatile tanks around due to it being able to take on so many targets effectively, a vindicator at a monstrous creature wont do much, a vindicator cannot even shoot flyers, the baal predator can take on both of these with a decent chance of doing some damage. They are best used with jumper lists as a mobile AV13 wall to block line of sight to my jump troops, the baals provide cover for the marines to cross the board, and the marines act as a counter-assault unit for the predators, this tactic I have found to be very effective and it's won me many games. Hmm, well they CAN take one many targets, but "effectively"? I don't think we can really say that, objectively. They'll have the edge on a Vindi against MCs, but it won't be a blowout due to only ignoring armour saves on rending shots, and while a Vindi can't shoot at Flyers at all, Baals aren't "good" at that job either, having less than 50% chance of stripping a HP from a jinking lowly AV10 flyer. By comparison, a Vindi will insta-kill some of the most problematic units for BA (Gravturions, T-wolves), will be a pain for TEQ, can engage heayv armour alright-ish, and can move faster while doing it, which means it can protect its weak flanks better. That is not to say the Vindi is awesome, as I already stated, but I think it is objectively the better vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakkamasta Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I think baals are still good. I have 3 and regularly use 2 in my army lists. Though they arn't absolute powerhouses of shooting, I've found them to be one of the most versatile tanks around due to it being able to take on so many targets effectively, a vindicator at a monstrous creature wont do much, a vindicator cannot even shoot flyers, the baal predator can take on both of these with a decent chance of doing some damage. They are best used with jumper lists as a mobile AV13 wall to block line of sight to my jump troops, the baals provide cover for the marines to cross the board, and the marines act as a counter-assault unit for the predators, this tactic I have found to be very effective and it's won me many games. Hmm, well they CAN take one many targets, but "effectively"? I don't think we can really say that, objectively. They'll have the edge on a Vindi against MCs, but it won't be a blowout due to only ignoring armour saves on rending shots, and while a Vindi can't shoot at Flyers at all, Baals aren't "good" at that job either, having less than 50% chance of stripping a HP from a jinking lowly AV10 flyer. By comparison, a Vindi will insta-kill some of the most problematic units for BA (Gravturions, T-wolves), will be a pain for TEQ, can engage heayv armour alright-ish, and can move faster while doing it, which means it can protect its weak flanks better. That is not to say the Vindi is awesome, as I already stated, but I think it is objectively the better vehicle. You do make a good point, and the vindicator is a great tank. I forgot to mention that i often bring 2 baals and 1 vindicator in my 2000 pt lists, so i use the vindicator to take out elite/tough units and the baals usually shoot something else. Another key part about the baal predator to making them work is using them as a support vehicle and not a BIG BUN GO BOOM unit. I've found whenever i go after a full unit with my baals i find myself dissapointed with the results. However i find them most effective as a 'soften up' support unit for my assault squads, i've found their best use is to bringing down strong squads to a more manageable number so that i can then assault them and take minimal casualties, after all its the assault units that are the backbone of many BA armies so keeping them alive after each assault is crucial to winning. And yes you're right about flyers, they arn't that great at taking them down, but at least they have a chance, if your stormraven has gone down and there is a heldrake running rampant around the board, sometimes you'll thank your lucky stars that you still have something with a chance of taking it down or hurting it in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I would rather take Razorbacks than Baals. And I wouldnt take Razorbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I would rather take Razorbacks than Baals. And I wouldnt take Razorbacks. Thatsl makes as much sense as saying you would rather have a chocolate bar than a tbone and you dont even like chocolate. The two don't even compare.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I'm almost always for more assault cannons. The ability to outflank them is sorely missed (especially in Hammer and Anvil deployment), but something I can work around. I've certainly destroyed more than one Heldrake with them. My opponents always seem to devote an extreme amount of firepower at them, certainly more than their 'fair share'. By being maneuverable (thank you Fast!), I can mitigate that by using intervening cover and controlling firing lanes. I've more often immobilized it myself in terrain than someone else has. I have discovered that running them in pairs is more than twice as effective as running a single one. My other go-to tank of choice was the AC/LC predator; but now that they compete for slots, I really have to dedicate to one or the other. Due to wanting to run a Stormraven, the 2/1 option isn't there, though I might try it if we ever run 'no flyers'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I'm almost always for more assault cannons. The ability to outflank them is sorely missed (especially in Hammer and Anvil deployment), but something I can work around. I've certainly destroyed more than one Heldrake with them. My opponents always seem to devote an extreme amount of firepower at them, certainly more than their 'fair share'. By being maneuverable (thank you Fast!), I can mitigate that by using intervening cover and controlling firing lanes. I've more often immobilized it myself in terrain than someone else has. I have discovered that running them in pairs is more than twice as effective as running a single one. My other go-to tank of choice was the AC/LC predator; but now that they compete for slots, I really have to dedicate to one or the other. Due to wanting to run a Stormraven, the 2/1 option isn't there, though I might try it if we ever run 'no flyers'. How about taking the raven in a storm wing detachment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 @ appiah5 I'm working on my second Stormtalon now, for that very reason. However, 2 Stormtalons and a Stormraven is a very pricey detachemnt (though not as pricey as three Stormravens and Tac Squads). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 @ appiah5 I'm working on my second Stormtalon now, for that very reason. However, 2 Stormtalons and a Stormraven is a very pricey detachemnt (though not as pricey as three Stormravens and Tac Squads). I'm a believer in 3 Storm Ravens and 3 Tactical Squads (Power Fist, Grav Pistol, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer). Oh yes please.. I am hoping to finish building this detachment by.. well, sometime :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.