Scimitar Jetbikes Anyone using them?

[PastelAvenger]

Into a Jetbike, which is longer and mounts a singular heavy weapon? How would you convert them into that?

[slipknotzim]

I ran a full squad with a medic and a libby for pressance, I use IH primarily, it was so bad I almost felt like I was cheating, they twin linked HVY bolters and MM and went troop hunting, they just ate WE troops and Termies, and they were so fast I never got shot back(I was even using 3+ before the 2+) so I would highly recommend them, course I use bikes as is, as stand ins due to price, but u really cannot go wrong with jet bikes, and for characters it’s like 10 pts more than a bike+ Art Arm

 

[Theredknight]

That's true, I'm not sure on the allies rule. As I play ec could I take a consul medic ih, some ih tab marine objective campers and a IH jetbike squad? And they will have IH legion rules?!

[PastelAvenger]

I ran a full squad with a medic and a libby for pressance, I use IH primarily, it was so bad I almost felt like I was cheating, they twin linked HVY bolters and MM and went troop hunting, they just ate WE troops and Termies, and they were so fast I never got shot back(I was even using 3+ before the 2+) so I would highly recommend them, course I use bikes as is, as stand ins due to price, but u really cannot go wrong with jet bikes, and for characters it’s like 10 pts more than a bike+ Art Arm[/size]

Does a Scimitar give a HQ a 2+ save? I just thought that's what you meant in the last sentence.

[depthcharge12]

 

I ran a full squad with a medic and a libby for pressance, I use IH primarily, it was so bad I almost felt like I was cheating, they twin linked HVY bolters and MM and went troop hunting, they just ate WE troops and Termies, and they were so fast I never got shot back(I was even using 3+ before the 2+) so I would highly recommend them, course I use bikes as is, as stand ins due to price, but u really cannot go wrong with jet bikes, and for characters it’s like 10 pts more than a bike+ Art Arm[/size]

Does a Scimitar give a HQ a 2+ save? I just thought that's what you meant in the last sentence.

It gives any model on it a 2+ save as an inbuilt modifier, so it saves you points on centurion models :)

 

Unfortunately it doesn't help Praetors or command squad, but that's ok.

[PastelAvenger]

 

 

I ran a full squad with a medic and a libby for pressance, I use IH primarily, it was so bad I almost felt like I was cheating, they twin linked HVY bolters and MM and went troop hunting, they just ate WE troops and Termies, and they were so fast I never got shot back(I was even using 3+ before the 2+) so I would highly recommend them, course I use bikes as is, as stand ins due to price, but u really cannot go wrong with jet bikes, and for characters it’s like 10 pts more than a bike+ Art Arm[/size]

Does a Scimitar give a HQ a 2+ save? I just thought that's what you meant in the last sentence.

It gives any model on it a 2+ save as an inbuilt modifier, so it saves you points on centurion models :) Unfortunately it doesn't help Praetors or command squad, but that's ok.

How did I miss this?!?

[depthcharge12]

I believe it was updated in the FAQ and/or red books as part of the armory.

[Drippy Waffler]

As a quick side note/tangental question, how do scimitars and the reaping RoW mix? Feasible or not? I would love a couple in a DG army....

[coloroutofspace]

I wonder, if Scars or Dark Angels will get unique Jetbikes? :)

[PastelAvenger]

I wonder, if Scars or Dark Angels will get unique Jetbikes? :)

I don't think Dark Angels will, in 40k they just have the last remaining working Jetbike but there is nothing remarkable about it. Also they don't develop the Ravenwing until after the HH. I hope I'm wrong I just can't see it happening.

[coloroutofspace]

Somehow I see Jetbikes fitting in DA's 'knightly' theme :)

[Hesh Kadesh]

We currently have several patterns of Jetbike we know about;

 

the XIV "Bullock" pattern which is seen in Brotherhood of the Storm. "Corvex", the Dark Angels' Master of the Ravenwing's jetbike(s) is similar in design, but mounts a pair of Storm Bolters (in game, Twin-linked) and a Plasma Cannon, while the Bullock pattern is normally limited to just a single Heavy Bolter, presumably modifiable like the Scimitar patterns we have already seen. The Jetbikes on the cover of Brotherhood of the Storm seem similar to "Corvex" in design but seemingly lack the Heavy Bolter.

 

"Scars" also gives us the "Sojutsu" pattern. Other than it being void capable, little is known about it.

 

Then there is the Scimitar which we have models for.

 

In the artwork of the Visions of Heresy book, we have a Jetbike Chariot, and alternative patterns of Jetbikes by the Emperor's Children, while IIRC, the Custodes have a variant Jetbike as well. 

 

@Drippy Waffler; No real benefit - you ignore the penalties for ending your move in difficult terrain. That's about it. As it's your only Fast Attack choice, you get no major benefits that make it more worthwhile to take than any other Fast Attack choice. On the other hand, it penalises you, preventing you from deploying via Deep Strike, which is a massive waste of the potential of the Fast Attack slot (although using Deep Strike Melta units in 30K is unlikely to get massive results due to Armoured Ceramite) - at least you can pick up 5 Relentless Land Speeders with Graviton Guns for 325pts, and is a real threat to most Armoured Units.

[Theredknight]

Do you guys ds them? I strongly dislike reserves due to appalling rolling, so I start with them on the board currently, then I can either move and shoot, or turbo boost up where I can strike t2

[Hesh Kadesh]

It can be a useful tactic.

 

If wanting to make use of Deep Strikers though, I often try to maximise the chance to get the unit on the board. Proteus with Explorator Arrays help.

 

On the other hand, with Interceptor easily available, and Sicarans, if Deep Striking, if Deep Striking, it is better to risk them not turning up- Proteus with the array allow you to reroll even successful ones after all.

 

(their shooting isn't fantastic, so if wanting to use them to take on heavy vehicles, you may want to use them as a late game strike, keeping them at risk of Sicarans it is not advisable. 3 with a Multimelta and 3 Meltabombs is okay for a late attack.

[Moonstalker]

Anyone thought of going triple centurions on jetbikes for their beatstick squad instead of Praetor + command squad on jetbikes (or Praetor + normal jetbike squad)?  Maybe make one of them a Chaplain for Zealot, one a Primus Medicae, and one a Legion Champion?  I haven't been arsed to do the math on it, but it seems like it might be something good?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hmmm, not really considered that, but I can't really see it being that useful - even Iron Hands for immunity to Instant Death by Double Strength.

 

Centurion, Consul, Legion Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter

Centurion, Consul, Legion Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter

Centurion, Consul, Legion Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter

= 390pts.

 

That's 390-420pts, and all you've got to show for it is 3 Heavy Bolters, and 6 T5 2+ Save wounds. Despite the 2+ with a 4+ Jink. Chaplain gives you Rerolls to hit in first turn of combat and a power weapon. That gives you 5 attacks on the charge with a power weapon, 6 if World Eaters. A Medicae gives you a 5+ FNP, while a Legion Champion gives you a Master crafted Close Combat Weapon (assuming it means any weapon with the melee rule, rather than an actual close combat weapon). This gives you 15 (of which 5 are power weapon attacks) on the charge. Take a couple of other power weapons, and a Boarding Shield somewhere in the squad, and you now get 14 Power Weapon Attacks for 430-460pts.

 

For 325pts, you get 10 Terminators with 30 Power Weapon Attacks on the charge, score, and 20 TL Bolters, +105-135pts for upgrades (70pts could be taken in combiweapons for example) - or in other words, a Sicaran - which has a Heavy Bolter and an equivalent amount shots from the much more powerful gun.

 

Compared to a Praetor + full Command Squad, which is 460pts before upgrades, while you can pick up a full squad of Skyhunters for 430pts with Meltabombs.

[Slips]

I'd Swap the Champion out for a Librarian since they can take Jetbikes too and roll for some Psychic Powers. That said, I'd keep the "Jetbike Sqaud of Death" at maximum 2 HQ's (PM + Other) and at a minimum of 6 for 2 Special Weapons.

 

Their only real advantage is their Speed but, they're still RIDICULOUSLY expensive TEQ HQ units.

[Moonstalker]

 

Their only real advantage is their Speed but, they're still RIDICULOUSLY expensive TEQ HQ units.

 

They can't be double-toughed by S8, meaning you have less to fear from PFists, and they come with built in mobility (no need for Spartan or Land Raider).  I'm mostly interested in whether it's better to add Centurions instead of a Command Squad.

 

Assuming we go with an identically kit Praetor in either load out to lead with, then maybe 2 Centurions vs a Command squad.

 

Just a quick comparison, not sure if these are ideal loadouts (they probably aren't):

 

Command squad

1 Bearer, 4 Chosen, 5 Jetbikes, 5 Combat Shields, 5 Power Weapons

390 points

 

vs

 

Centurion

Jetbike, Refractor Field, Chaplain (Power Weapon)

140

Centurion

Jetbike, Refractor Field, Primus Medicae, Power Weapon

155

 

Arrows point to the advantaged side.

Centurions vs Command Squad

295 Point < 390 points

4 wounds > 6 wounds

8 attacks > 10 attacks

10 on the charge > 15 on the charge

FNP < No FNP

BS 5 < BS4

I5 < I4

Fearless > Fearless Bubble

Zealot < No Zealot

5+ Invul < Combat Shield

 

The Centurion Squad is also more resistant to having its combat capability reduced through casualties; where one failed save will result in the loss of 20% of the Command Squad's effectiveness, one failed save for the Centurions doesn't reduce their combat efficiency at all.

 

I think the cost savings/FNP/Zealot/I5 actually tip this one for the Centurions.  Putting Zealot and FNP on your Praetor sounds really, really good, and I5 + Zealot seems like it will do a lot to make up for the reduced number of attacks while giving the enemy less opportunity to get in wounds.

[depthcharge12]

Bs5 is negligible because you're using heavy bolters, which, let's be honest here, won't make much difference vs. 3+ saves or better.

 

I5 is also negligible because you're more than likely going to take axes on them as swords are great, but you have plenty ap3 in the army to deal with that. As a cc centered unit, you'll need them to be able to take on TEQ saves as that's what you'll likely encounter.

 

Not counting the praetor, this is how I'd run the command squad on Jetbikes:

 

Banner bearer - power fist (at WS5 aaaand 2W he can survive quite a bit and lay down the hurt)

 

2 guys with power axes

 

1 guy with power sword

 

1 guy with power maul

 

 

The guys with a sword and maul provide a meat shield for the guys with axes, and not only that, the sword can clear out some 3+ saves if they're there. The maul is to concuss the enemy to I1 so you can get your axes to swing. He also can deal with largely anything AdMech or Auxila as well (looking at you Charonite Ogryns).

 

Obviously your praetor will be running with a paragon blade, but I'd almost lean towards a thunder hammer at this point. You have the durability and in my 2000 point matches, my and my opponents praetor slug it out for a few turns and usually wind up killing each other by one dropping wounds and the other getting a lucky 6. I'd recommend the hammer just for the reliability of always causing ID wounds against non bike characters.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

Bs5 is negligible because you're using heavy bolters, which, let's be honest here, won't make much difference vs. 3+ saves or better.

Sort-of-agreed, I just included it for completeness.  However, it may also be worth pointing out that these Centurions could be given combiplasmas (like I said, I don't really know what the optimum load out is here) that would give them a little more of an edge against TEQ.  The command squad actually cannot take combiweapons (only combibolters), so 4 shots of BS5 S7 AP2 before the charge isn't something the command squad really has an answer for.

 

 

 

I5 is also negligible because you're more than likely going to take axes on them as swords are great, but you have plenty ap3 in the army to deal with that. As a cc centered unit, you'll need them to be able to take on TEQ saves as that's what you'll likely encounter.

 

I don't agree.  For a small price increase, the centurions can just have two power weapons each, allowing them to choose between sword or axe each round.  It's something that would need some on-the-table testing and experimentation, but having the option to strike first against MEQ with AP3 could really come in handy, and axes-only isn't the only choice.  As you say, it's entirely possible that there are some 3+ saves in the melee that just need to be cleared out.  Getting them out of the way before they can even strike seems pretty worthwhile.

 

 

 

Obviously your praetor will be running with a paragon blade, but I'd almost lean towards a thunder hammer at this point.

 

whynotboth.jpg

 

Though, personally, I'd prefer Pfist + Paragon.  It's only a couple points more expensive than digital weapons and gives you the S8 unwieldy option that you're looking for (along with +1 A).  I can see the case for Pfist, Cfist, or THammer though.  Comes down to whether you value points saving, anti-armor, or concussive more.

 

I really think having Zealot and FNP in the squad does a lot to put this double Centurion idea one up on the Command Squad.  Zealot is going to even out the difference in first-round attacks between the two, and the FNP will really help make sure your squad makes it into (and through) melee.  But while it even things out between the command squad and Centurions, it also boosts the Praetor, something that the Command Squad can't do.

 

 

One question, though: you don't use combat shields in your jetbike command squad?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Something many people forget with Mauls; Concussive only affects those surviving after unsaved wounds. 

[heptus]

As an EC player, I'm considering hiring some jetbikes as bodyguards for my champion, who is a mandatory HQ for Maru Skara ROW. Still have no idea of loadouts for both champ and jetbikes though.

[Ironwithout]

Only problem is jetbikes are crap in combat. Even if you do a command squad combat shields just don't cut it. Honestly I wanted them to. 22 games now and I'm finally changing them to a normal squad. Sorry to burst your bubble. Rule of cool hell yea. On the tabletop they blow I'm afraid. Outclassed by nearly every other combat unit about

[Hesh Kadesh]

Giving them extra toughness, speed, jink, Deep Strike, Heavy Bolters and a 5++ Save doesn't make them any worse than other CC units. Making them worth that investment however is another question.

[Caillum]

This is Ryan Kimmel's Biker Manifesto, as posted by the Eye of Horus Podcast. Pretty good read actually! He has experience with them, and breaks down a lot of the factors involved, including Legion-specific analysis. Basically, Scimitars are the gun platforms and Outriders are the close combat bikes.

 

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