Necrons and Ghost Arks

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If only that's how Modifiers worked, you would be correct.

 

There is only one modifier in use, Lance. Necron vehicles are AV13 when you shoot them, that's what Lance checks. It registers AV13, and lowers it to AV12. 

Salvo 10. Unless you are folded around the Ghost Ark to be shot by both sides, they can only generate 10 Hits on a unit at the most. That may have been what you meant, but it sounded like you were saying it was Salvo 20 on each individual side.

 

No no, Throne no. Salvo 10 on each side. It's not that hard to get a lot of units within both firing arcs. Also, taking multiples is a thing they can do. 

Also keep in mind that the RP isn't the only rule that the Spyder can grant, just the one that will be used the most. 

 

Well yeah, definitely on the approach. They don't need Fleet due to being Beast type, and Shred isn't especially needed (it's nice for taking on high Toughness stuff, but Wraiths are pretty by themselves with Rending and a bunch of attacks). More likely they'll get one turn of RP, then the Spyder dies and they're back to normal. Which still only means about 1 turn away from a charge, but hey. 

[Nehekhare]

 

There is only one modifier in use, Lance. Necron vehicles are AV13 when you shoot them, that's what Lance checks. It registers AV13, and lowers it to AV12. 

 

Rules are not people, they don't "check" anything. Both rules explicitly "count as" a certain set armor value. Please read Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, pg. 8, "Multiple Modifiers" on how to handle multiple set value modifiers.

 

 

Salvo 10 on each side. It's not that hard to get a lot of units within both firing arcs.

 

It is not hard, it is impossible: the gauss flayer arrays are hull-mounted weapons that can physically only be moved in a vertical angle, so they are assumed to have an arc of sight of 45° horizontally (side facing only) as per pg. 74, "Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight".

[Lucien Eilam]

The Multiple Modifiers section just says apply set values last. It doesn't address what to do if you have more than one set value.

 

It's irrelevant in this case anyway. The Lance rule only applies to armour values greater than 12, so there's an explicit sequence. Quantum Shielding has to be applied first for the Lance effect to be triggered.

[Kristoff]

 

If only that's how Modifiers worked, you would be correct.

There is only one modifier in use, Lance. Necron vehicles are AV13 when you shoot them, that's what Lance checks. It registers AV13, and lowers it to AV12.

 

No, not really. The Armour Value is base 11 (usually). Wargear modifies it to a set 13 (bummer for one Forgeworld Vehicle). Lance modifies it to a set 12. If Quantum Shielding isn't modifying the Armour Value, then it's at 11 and Lance does nothing.

 

Reason this is new is most Wargear that affects hits, do not modify the Armour Value, and even the previous version of Quantum Shielding was an Additive Modifier, while Lance has always been a Set Value.

 

 

Salvo 10. Unless you are folded around the Ghost Ark to be shot by both sides, they can only generate 10 Hits on a unit at the most. That may have been what you meant, but it sounded like you were saying it was Salvo 20 on each individual side.

No no, Throne no. Salvo 10 on each side. It's not that hard to get a lot of units within both firing arcs. Also, taking multiples is a thing they can do.

 

Actually it is that hard for a Ghost Ark to get in that position. You have to be targeting a decent-sized unit at max coherency in a crescent shape to be able to shoot with both sides. The Hordes can set it up. Mini-Hordes like Sisters and Crusader squads could do it, but the smaller units like Tactical Squads will have a hard time doing it.

 

But more importantly, WHY would you allow your unit to be in such a position in the first place?

 

The Multiple Modifiers section just says apply set values last. It doesn't address what to do if you have more than one set value.

Which generates a conflict. Conflicts between Advanced Rulebook rules and Codex rules find in favor of the Codex rule, always (Basic vs Advanced).

 

It's irrelevant in this case anyway. The Lance rule only applies to armour values greater than 12, so there's an explicit sequence. Quantum Shielding has to be applied first for the Lance effect to be triggered.

Again, if only that was how modifiers actually worked. Sequence only counts when both rules resolve at the same time. Quantum Shielding is up before Lance fires and only comes down after any damage Lance can inflict.

 

P.S.: If you want to go in to the mechanics of it, open a thread in the Official Rules section.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, because there are no logical alternatives. Either Quantum Shielding is up and the vehicle is AV13 (and thus Lance lowers to AV12), or Quantum Shielding is not in effect, and Lance does nothing (and you resolve against the base AV11, which is actually even better). 

 

Quite clearly, it's ludicrous to argue Quantum Shielding isn't in play. So, there is no other alternative. Darkfire cannon is therefore a perfectly viable option for dealing with Necron skimmers. Ideally, you'd use Thallax or punch them to death with Ursarax powerfists though. 

 

Regarding gauss flayer arrays, Necron players will bring multiple Ghost Arks if they bring any at all, and they can light up two different units or one big one. 10 shots per side is a lot, they're not quite as good or consistent as Serpents, but when you add in the rapid-firing Warriors on board, its a lot of S4 to eat. Not to mention it also functions as anti-tank, as any 6's for damage rolls mean HP loss. 

[Kristoff]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, because there are no logical alternatives. Either Quantum Shielding is up and the vehicle is AV13 (and thus Lance lowers to AV12), or Quantum Shielding is not in effect, and Lance does nothing (and you resolve against the base AV11, which is actually even better). 

 

Quite clearly, it's ludicrous to argue Quantum Shielding isn't in play. So, there is no other alternative. Darkfire cannon is therefore a perfectly viable option for dealing with Necron skimmers. Ideally, you'd use Thallax or punch them to death with Ursarax powerfists though.

As I said, "if only that was how Modifiers work", and if you want to discuss the mechanics of it, we have an Official Rules section for that.

 

Regarding gauss flayer arrays, Necron players will bring multiple Ghost Arks if they bring any at all, and they can light up two different units or one big one. 10 shots per side is a lot, they're not quite as good or consistent as Serpents, but when you add in the rapid-firing Warriors on board, its a lot of S4 to eat. Not to mention it also functions as anti-tank, as any 6's for damage rolls mean HP loss.

Yet, Salvo 20 was being discussed as coming from one Ark, not from two, and not including Embarked units. Which it can, but it generally will be hitting two different targets, which is actually scarier when you think about it.

[Nehekhare]

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, because there are no logical alternatives. Either Quantum Shielding is up and the vehicle is AV13 (and thus Lance lowers to AV12), or Quantum Shielding is not in effect, and Lance does nothing (and you resolve against the base AV11, which is actually even better).

 

Alternative 3: One player decides in what order to apply the modifiers and applies lance first (does nothing against AV11), quantum shielding last (counts as AV13), resulting in S8 against AV13.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

As I said, "if only that was how Modifiers work", and if you want to discuss the mechanics of it, we have an Official Rules section for that.

 

Okay, I'll quote the relevant rules then;

 

"Lance:

 

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as A12"

pg. 167, 40k main rulebook 7th edition

 

"Quantum Shielding:

 

A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13"

pg. 265, Codex Necrons 7th edition

 

"Multiple Modifiers:

 

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, then finally apply any set values"

pg. 8, 40k main rulebook 7th edition

 

 

The Quantum Shielding sets the Necron vehicles AV to 13. But that's the only wargear or rule IT has. The Necron vehicle doesn't have the Lance rule, it only has the Quantum Shielding rule. Therefore, it is set at AV13, but if targeted by an attack with the Lance special rule, it's armour is reduced to AV12 as a set modifier. Neither of these things have anything to do with whose turn it is. Necron vehicles don't stop having Quantum Shielding until they suffer a penetrating hit. Darkfire cannons don't stop having the Lance rule because its your opponents turn. Lance can be ignored, but only by rules that override it specifically (ie Ferromantic Invulnerability). By your logic, the Melta rule only applies if its your turn, and not in your opponents turn. I'm sure a lot of Knight-Titan players would love to roll with that interpretation. 

 

So, as I said before, as the rules stand you're wrong. If your Necron opponents insist otherwise, direct them to those passages in both the main rulebook and their own codex. 

Alternative 3: One player decides in what order to apply the modifiers and applies lance first (does nothing against AV11), quantum shielding last (counts as AV13), resulting in S8 against AV13.

 

No they don't. Nothing in the rules supports that. You don't have to inform your opponent if they misinterpret the rules or make a mistake (although its generally considered good form for both parties to do so). Likewise, they can't magically ignore the rules because it's their turn. Also, minor quibble, but darkfire cannons are only Strength 7 ;)

Yet, Salvo 20 was being discussed as coming from one Ark, not from two, and not including Embarked units. Which it can, but it generally will be hitting two different targets, which is actually scarier when you think about it. 

 

Well it is. I never said at one unit specifically. I was making the point that your army will eat Salvo 20 S4 gauss per Ghost Ark. As I mentioned earlier, against horde armies it is possible to drive amongst them and light up one big unit of Ork Boyz or Gaunts or whatever. Especially if they charged you and wrapped around the hull. Plus the embarked Warriors shooting you as well. Gauss is serious business, its like Bolter Banner hurricanes but with free Rending against vehicles. Tech-Thralls will be vapour against Necrons, I'd recommend going full robot and Thallax. T5 is annoying for them to hurt (especially with three wounds), and Castellax walk through even tesla without much bother. 

[Nehekhare]

"Lance:

 

Weapons with the Lance special rule count vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as A12"

pg. 167, 40k main rulebook 7th edition

 

"Quantum Shielding:

 

A vehicle equipped with active quantum shielding counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13"

pg. 265, Codex Necrons 7th edition

 

"Multiple Modifiers:

 

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, then finally apply any set values"

pg. 8, 40k main rulebook 7th edition

 

 

The Quantum Shielding sets the Necron vehicles AV to 13. But that's the only wargear or rule IT has. The Necron vehicle doesn't have the Lance rule, it only has the Quantum Shielding rule. Therefore, it is set at AV13, but if targeted by an attack with the Lance special rule, it's armour is reduced to AV12 as a set modifier. Neither of these things have anything to do with whose turn it is. Necron vehicles don't stop having Quantum Shielding until they suffer a penetrating hit. Darkfire cannons don't stop having the Lance rule because its your opponents turn. Lance can be ignored, but only by rules that override it specifically (ie Ferromantic Invulnerability). By your logic, the Melta rule only applies if its your turn, and not in your opponents turn. I'm sure a lot of Knight-Titan players would love to roll with that interpretation. 

 

So, as I said before, as the rules stand you're wrong.

 

Sorry, but your argument is based an absurd assumption.

 

You try to eliminate one of the two modifiers by refering to the expression "a model has" but you fail to state why this expression would exclude modifiers applied to the model from outside sources.

 

Nowhere does it specify that the rules in question have to be listed under the model's wargear or special rules entry, or cannot stem from another effect/model/weapon (which in turn would raise the question how modifiers from weapons would EVER apply to anything other than itself).

 

The Ghost Ark in our example obviously "has a combination of rules [...] that modify a characteristic" (AV) applied to it, namely a combination of the quantum shielding RULE and the Lance RULE, regardless of only one of them originating from its own wargear.

 

...q.e.d.

 

Once you accept that both are legit set value modifiers (and dismiss the argument that quantum shielded AV could remain at 11 even though "counted as" 13, thus not triggering the condition of the Lance special rule in the first place), it becomes a problem of

"Sequencing" (pg. 17): "While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - [...]. When this is happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

(which normally would be the shooting player, but could as well be the Necron player in case of melee, interceptor or terrain effect attacks with the Lance special rule)

[Kristoff]

Once you accept that both are legit set value modifiers (and dismiss the argument that quantum shielded AV could remain at 11 even though "counted as" 13, thus not triggering the condition of the Lance special rule in the first place), it becomes a problem of

"Sequencing" (pg. 17): "While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - [...]. When this is happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

(which normally would be the shooting player, but could as well be the Necron player in case of melee, interceptor or terrain effect attacks with the Lance special rule)

And the problem with Sequencing is that both rules need to resolve at the same time in order to trigger this rulw. Quantum Shilding is on from deploying till a Penetrating Hit occurs, so is resolved when deployed, while Lance only resolves when its weapon Hits and rolls Penetration.

[Nehekhare]

 

And the problem with Sequencing is that both rules need to resolve at the same time in order to trigger this rulw. Quantum Shilding is on from deploying till a Penetrating Hit occurs, so is resolved when deployed, while Lance only resolves when its weapon Hits and rolls Penetration.

 

The Quantum Shielding vehicle equipment is "active" until the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit, but the Quantum Shielding rule is "resolved" every time the AV characteristic is "counted as" 13 - lest you interpret it to be resolved=active permanently (overwriting any other modifiers like lance).

[Kristoff]

 

And the problem with Sequencing is that both rules need to resolve at the same time in order to trigger this rulw. Quantum Shilding is on from deploying till a Penetrating Hit occurs, so is resolved when deployed, while Lance only resolves when its weapon Hits and rolls Penetration.

The Quantum Shielding vehicle equipment is "active" until the vehicle suffers a penetrating hit, but the Quantum Shielding rule is "resolved" every time the AV characteristic is "counted as" 13 - lest you interpret it to be resolved=active permanently (overwriting any other modifiers like lance).

And that's where part of the Sequencing rule lies. What does "resolved" mean?

 

P.S. To clarify, QS modifies the Armour in the Movement Phase as much as the Shooting or Assault Phase, which makes the timing of "resolved" not just when hit by a weapon.

[Nehekhare]

to clarify: "Sequencing" is the only way to solve the issue of a double counts-as that is given RAW, as bad and complicated as it is.

[Kristoff]

to clarify: "Sequencing" is the only way to solve the issue of a double counts-as that is given RAW, as bad and complicated as it is.

Not true. It is the only chance that Lance has to gain primacy, and it doesn't do a good job at it.

 

There is another resolution, and it comes from the Basic vs Advanced rules in which Advanced Rules from a codex win in conflicts with Advanced Rules from the Rulebook.

 

There is also the Dice-Off resolution as well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You try to eliminate one of the two modifiers by refering to the expression "a model has" but you fail to state why this expression would exclude modifiers applied to the model from outside sources.

 

Nowhere does it specify that the rules in question have to be listed under the model's wargear or special rules entry, or cannot stem from another effect/model/weapon (which in turn would raise the question how modifiers from weapons would EVER apply to anything other than itself).

 

I don't eliminate any modifiers. I'm simply saying that Lance can't be negated except by something like Ferromantic Invulnerability, which explicitly says 'ignore the Lance rule'. QS does modify the Necron vehicles AV to 13, but Lance modifies it to AV12. Lance doesn't 'turn off' or ignore Quantum Shielding, it simply overrides it. 

"Sequencing" (pg. 17): "While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - [...]. When this is happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, the player whose turn it is chooses the order."

 

But they're not resolved at the same time. QS starts from when the model is deployed, and only turns off after you suffer a Penetrating hit. Lance only triggers when you make a penetrating roll with the weapon in question. So, they don't resolve at the same time. Hence, Lance works (it works for other reasons but I'm addressing this point directly). 

to clarify: "Sequencing" is the only way to solve the issue of a double counts-as that is given RAW, as bad and complicated as it is.

 

No, it's not the only way. I've just mentioned why Lance will always work, unless specifically negated by another special rule. 

There is another resolution, and it comes from the Basic vs Advanced rules in which Advanced Rules from a codex win in conflicts with Advanced Rules from the Rulebook.

 

There is also the Dice-Off resolution as well. 

 

Neither of those are workable. If the former were true, it makes Lance weaponry worthless against their entire vehicle roster, which is patently absurd. The latter isn't workable either, as you can't seriously be rolling off for every special rule where there is a conflict. Especially not in a competitive setting, you'd reserve that for when the judges can't decide either. 

 

If this issue comes up at a tourney, I can guarantee any judge will say 'Lance works, Necron vehicle is AV12'. It's how it works. 

[Kristoff]

 

You try to eliminate one of the two modifiers by refering to the expression "a model has" but you fail to state why this expression would exclude modifiers applied to the model from outside sources.

 

Nowhere does it specify that the rules in question have to be listed under the model's wargear or special rules entry, or cannot stem from another effect/model/weapon (which in turn would raise the question how modifiers from weapons would EVER apply to anything other than itself).

I don't eliminate any modifiers. I'm simply saying that Lance can't be negated except by something like Ferromantic Invulnerability, which explicitly says 'ignore the Lance rule'. QS does modify the Necron vehicles AV to 13, but Lance modifies it to AV12. Lance doesn't 'turn off' or ignore Quantum Shielding, it simply overrides it.

 

And where is the rule process that tells us this? Quantum Shielding and Lance do the same thing TO the same thing, but to different results.

 

 

to clarify: "Sequencing" is the only way to solve the issue of a double counts-as that is given RAW, as bad and complicated as it is.

No, it's not the only way. I've just mentioned why Lance will always work, unless specifically negated by another special rule.

 

No, you haven't. You've simply stated, "This is the way it is" without any rules support.

 

 

There is another resolution, and it comes from the Basic vs Advanced rules in which Advanced Rules from a codex win in conflicts with Advanced Rules from the Rulebook.

 

There is also the Dice-Off resolution as well. 

Neither of those are workable. If the former were true, it makes Lance weaponry worthless against their entire vehicle roster, which is patently absurd. The latter isn't workable either, as you can't seriously be rolling off for every special rule where there is a conflict. Especially not in a competitive setting, you'd reserve that for when the judges can't decide either. 

 

If this issue comes up at a tourney, I can guarantee any judge will say 'Lance works, Necron vehicle is AV12'. It's how it works.

 

Maybe a TO will rule that, maybe they will rule the other way, but I can prove my case using the rulebook. You have brought nothing to support your opinion.

 

Keep in mind, that almost everyone knows that Codex rules trump Rulebook when they conflict, and TOs will most definitely know this.

 

And yes, you can roll off every time there is a conflict, but it makes for a slow game. However, I should point out that not everyone is playing a competitive game.

 

As for making most Necron Vehicles immune to Lance, your point is... what exactly? There are many cases where a rule will make a weapon less useful in certain situations, and completely useless against them. And it's not like most Lance weaponry couldn't Glance AV 13, either, if not Penetrate it without Lance. Lance just makes it easier.