Overall Tactics: Handling Large Units & Low Unit Count

[tdemayo]

So, I played my starter HH army for the first time the other day. I immediately encountered some aspects of the legion list (or at least my build of it) that I had not entirely anticipated. Big units are hard to maneuver, and a few large units severely restricted my ability to fire at multiple targets.

 

It was a 1500ish point small game versus a 30k Ravenguard force.  I was running 2 units of 20 tactical marines with apothecaries, etc, 10 ML in a fortification, and 10 plasma guns in a rhino.

 

Although the 20 man tactical squads were quite resilient, and their  Fury of the Legion was devastating, the large units were quite unwieldy.  The two tactical squads occupied about a 30" area of my deployment zone, and even then, they seemed too close together when hit by a Thunderfire cannon's templates. It was difficult to coordinate them in a march on the Relic in the center or bring all their bolters to bear.  Similarly, the ML squads put out a lot of fire, but they could only target one enemy unit at a time.  Against MSU this was a significant disadvantage.  The Relic mission meant only one objective to worry about, but in a different scenario, the low unit count make it difficult to hold multiple objectives?

 

 

So:  How do people build their lists and play them in order to adequately cover multiple targets and to seize multiple objectives?  Do you take smaller units of troops, such as 10 man tactical squads for objective holding? Do you use large infantry units to advance or to hold? In pure HH battles, with their basically 6th ed scoring rules, how do you select the right number and size of Troops? At what point scales should army composition and unit mix change?

[Moonstalker]

1500 is definitely small for 30k.  2k is really a good starting point, that's when you'll have the room to really be comfortable with making your lists.  I think 2-2.5k is where 30k really shines.  Plenty of room for multiple scoring units there.  3 of them at 1500 is pretty do-able though.  I wouldn't shoot for much more than that, as you'll probably really harm the killing power of your list.

 

Normally, I highly advocate maxing out unit sizes for the value you get from cheap additional guys.  But you gotta make sacrifices sometimes.  I run 2x 19+Apothecary Tac Squads in my list.  Going down to 15 at 1500 is probably okay.  I would try to avoid 10 man squads at almost any cost, though.  Especially if you're going to run Apothecaries, or more than 2 squads.  The benefits you get from the additional guy discount/squad tax and from spreading FNP to more guys for free is too good to pass up - dealing with maneuvering large blocks of troops is just part of playing 30k.

 

I think the 10 man plasma squad might've been a mistake.  That's a huge chunk of your army (fully 20%) invested in 10 guys who die like tac marines.  You're committing to getting value out of that squad, they have to do work.  5 guys at 1500 might be more reasonable.

[defl0]

I think it depends on how you are going to use your units.

 

Let's talk tacs: 

 

For example, 20 tacs with an apothecary is great for rear guard and foot slogging to an objective, but really in most list IMO they are just scoring chaff. 

 

The big foot print can be a big tactical tool as well. For example 20 guys can really bubble wrap a of tanks and protect from deepstrikers. Or string them down a board edge to block out flankers. Or do a refused flank to stuff deepstrikers. Or infiltrate a big units to basically block infiltration from an entire army. 

 

Only a couple list really really use the big squads as an offensive tool. Raven guard and Alpha legion can alpha strike with infiltrators and then charge. Imperial Fists get BS5. Death Guard can gain some HTH boost with rad grenades. World Eaters do a go job of making them a problem to have to deal with with offensively. 

 

Pretty much every other legion uses them as rear guard and mid field objective campers, and some do this better than others. 

 

With that in mind a 10 man unit in a rhinos is cheap, mobile, resilient and scoring. Same with one in a drop pod. And sure you bring up the cost savings, but what's cheaper? A big unit that sits on the board and has to eat bullets or a unit that can come in late game and take an objective.

 

In 30k, you see a lot of people about big units being cheaper, it's kinda BS. Lets face it, the 10 man squad and the 20 man squad both spend the same amount of points for 10 guys... So what's more efficient? A 35 pt drop pod that comes in on turn 3 or average or a 3 or 4 extra marines but you have to sit on the board 3 extra turns and eat bullets? Plus you get the resilience of jsut sitting in the rhino or drop pod. 

 

Anyway, my design philosophy is to take units with a purpose. Take units in the size appropriate to complete their object. 

 

For example: I play Raven Guard. And if I'm taking fliers that come out on a re rolling reserve roll, I'm looking for a way to kill anti air units first turn. So the the question becomes how do I kill AV 12 reliably turn 1? (Most anti Air is AV 12 on side armor and infiltrate usually gives you the side arc). 

 

So I need 13 auto cannons (S7) or 18 missile launchers (s8) or 11 lascannons (S9 Ap2), or equivalent, to statistically kill them if they have cover. Half that if they don't have cover. 

 

For me, I'd rather take 2 units with 7 X S7 shots hoping to get 2 side shot opportunities with no cover. Instead of a mega unit, because the extra points spent for the split fire I get back in less dead units. 

 

Overall though it depends on your list design. If you are running a termi unit in a spartan, you are expecting a couple turns of movement and then engaging your enemy at mid field. so you have a couple turns to soften up a target and you are offering multiple threat targets so you can get away with units like sicarians and scorpius launchers. 

 

If you want to build a more artillery heavy list you want to stuff your opponent in a box, so your pie plates are more effective, so you want early long range kill button units. So something like a big predator squad or big dev squads with tank hunter. Maybe some infiltrating or deepstrike vehicles to clog up movement lanes. 

 

Ultimately, we are all playing with the same codex. So best unit size is really dependent on your strategic goals and figuring out ways to dictate how your enemy deals with you. 

 

PLAY BOTH SIDES OF THE BOARD ;)

[defl0]

Btw - What legion are you playing as? Or are you just going vanilla? 

 

If you have something with infiltrate, I would try dropping one apothecary and taking 2 10 man squads instead. 

 

Also might try to find points for an augury scanner in the apothecary if you don't already have one. 

 

Not sure what to say about the plasma support squad in a rhino. No really my cup of tea. They are kinda in a weird spot of expensive and REALLY reliant on their rhino to get into a range. I'd almost prefer to sit them with the devastators and the big troops squad and keep them together as a being nasty unit area to have to deal with. 

 

Again with something like Raven guard / alpha legion you could infiltrate them in the rhino and guarantee that they smash something hard. 

 

Or you could go with death guard, give your tac units rad grenades and your hvy support unit would count as troops. Although then you will be tempted to drop the plasma gunners and take a second heavy weapon squad ;) 

 

Lol. 4 scoring units, all with rad grenades, and 63 bodies on the board at 1500... You won't be complaining about unwieldy unit anymore... LOLz 

[tdemayo]

Oh yeah, mine was not am ideal list by any means, and the point scale was to match my opponent. (The plasma gunners exist because I had the bits and thought they'd be interesting, eventually.)

 

I'm playing Imperial Fists. Ive got some Cataphractii, a Fire Raptor and more bits for basic marines ordered. I'm also working on a squadron of las/ac predators.

 

So I guess I'm wondering how many more basic marines I should make above my existing 40, to be tactical marines, vets, and so forth, and how to group them into units.

[powwow]

Somewhat related to the subject at hand: 32mm bases. FW has put some of their new models on 32mm bases, and I have been constructing my models to be put on 32mm bases (lots of jump pack guys so the better distribution of weight will assist here).

 

When someone decides that their 20 man tactical squad is going to be sitting on 32mm bases, what sort of implications does this have for maneuverability on the game board? Would they be an unwieldy block on the battlefield or does the addition space mean that they will counter a small part of the risk of damage by artillery? Or both?

 

One of my ally ideas for my Sons of Horus involves using a couple of tactical blobs and I'm worried that they will take up half of the game board (exaggeration I know).

[SillyDreadnought]

I've been moving back to 10 man Tacs in Rhinos lately over the more common blob Tacs. I think the mobility the Rhino brings is just too good to ignore and worth the loss of FNP. But this is with the caveat that I do play Iron Hands, so my Tacs are more resistant to small arms fire by default.

[Moonstalker]

I've been moving back to 10 man Tacs in Rhinos lately over the more common blob Tacs. I think the mobility the Rhino brings is just too good to ignore and worth the loss of FNP. But this is with the caveat that I do play Iron Hands, so my Tacs are more resistant to small arms fire by default.

 

How long on average do your Rhinos last?  Are you reserving them for later-game objective grabbing, or do you start with them on the table and/or make early moves?

[SillyDreadnought]

 

I've been moving back to 10 man Tacs in Rhinos lately over the more common blob Tacs. I think the mobility the Rhino brings is just too good to ignore and worth the loss of FNP. But this is with the caveat that I do play Iron Hands, so my Tacs are more resistant to small arms fire by default.

 

 

How long on average do your Rhinos last?  Are you reserving them for later-game objective grabbing, or do you start with them on the table and/or make early moves?

I tend to play on terrain-dense boards, so that plus Iron Hands Rules need to be taken into account on my experiences with Rhinos, as I have access to plentiful ways to repair them.

 

That said, unless they get focussed down, they tend to last three to four turns even in the face of my aggressive use of them. I use them to get Tacs and Tac Supports into aggressive positions and then use the Rhinos themselves as either LoS blockers or as tank shock platforms. The usefulness of the Rhino really boils down to the tables you play though and what else is in your list.

 

Kind of a poor answer I know, but it's all I have.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

I've been moving back to 10 man Tacs in Rhinos lately over the more common blob Tacs. I think the mobility the Rhino brings is just too good to ignore and worth the loss of FNP. But this is with the caveat that I do play Iron Hands, so my Tacs are more resistant to small arms fire by default.

 

How long on average do your Rhinos last?  Are you reserving them for later-game objective grabbing, or do you start with them on the table and/or make early moves?

I tend to play on terrain-dense boards, so that plus Iron Hands Rules need to be taken into account on my experiences with Rhinos, as I have access to plentiful ways to repair them.

 

That said, unless they get focussed down, they tend to last three to four turns even in the face of my aggressive use of them. I use them to get Tacs and Tac Supports into aggressive positions and then use the Rhinos themselves as either LoS blockers or as tank shock platforms. The usefulness of the Rhino really boils down to the tables you play though and what else is in your list.

 

Kind of a poor answer I know, but it's all I have.

 

 

No, I think it's a good answer.  I would like to see every unit in the codex being useful, and I really struggle to find good uses for Rhinos in 30k.  Learning how people are getting use out of them is good, even if their local meta is different than mine.

[Brofist]

I mostly play 1500-1850 point games. That makes points really hard to squeeze- choosing a spartan or 20 man tactical blob often means you have to build your entire army around it. Early on I tried the popular x20 man squads with FNP. I ran into the same problems- they're slow, cost a lot, take up a lots of space, and only have bolters. Worst, as defl0 pointed out, even if they're more economical maxed out, it's still ~300 points to make them work. Does it make sense to spend that much on what amounts to be a bullet sponge, or would you better be suited by a metal box, 10 man squad, and a predator with lascanon sponsons? You really have to think about how everything goes together. Sadly, I don't think there is an easy answer as the things you're experiencing are the intentional shortcomings of a Legion Army. Finding a way to exploit them, or leverage them, gets you a strong list.

When I make a list I'm usually thinking about my strengths, my weaknesses, and the different things I can expect to face. TAC lists at low points are really hard to do since you can never really shore up all the holes in your army. Moreover, somebody really specialized in one area might have so much of an edge against your single counter that you'll still have an uphill fight. This said, I encourage you to ask questions like:

• What's my overall theme? Am I going hog wild with it, or should I shore up some of my weak spots?
• What can shoot at fliers? Should I even bring AA?
• What can hurt MCs? Should I just accept that I will loose to those armies?
• What can penetrate or glance vehicles at range? Is that important to this army?
• What's good in melee? Is it defensive or offensive? Do I need or can I accept that I will struggle against melee armies?
• Do I need blast weapons or should I focus on volume of fire?

Units that fulfill multiple roles for a good points value are strong candidates for your core army. I'm 100% with defl0, try to build your army with purpose. Figure out what each unit will do and then gear them to do it. Sometimes this means giving them nothing at all!

I'm hardly an expert, but here's the lessons I've learned after about a year of HH gaming at 1500-1850 points:

• I run as few tactical squads as possible. If it's a mechanized army, I'll use x2 naked tactical squads in rhinos. If I use a a 20 man blob with FNP, it's going to be just one and entirely dedicated to being a bullet sponge. As my anvil, I might specialize it further with things like navigators, chaplain HQ, Iron Hand rules, or supporting units like Castellax. It costs less than two 20 man squads, but ends up as a tough line unit that will march forward, take objectives, and hold the line against everything except knight titans.
• Don't overspend on squads, even if it's more economical you're still spending extra points to get there.
• Minimize your disadvantages and maximize your advantages. Legion armies have solid support units and some of the most economical big guns in the game. Pay your troops tax, then save points by using budget support options to even things out.
• Break the static mold of the legion army through infiltrate, deep strike, and outflanking units. Having a little mobility can go a long way to making your army much less reactionary.
• If you can't break the mold, reinforce what you already have. Focus on strong firepower or tough units that can walk up the field. Use interdiction units like plasma cannon destroyers or mortis/dodo dreads in your mid field to counter \enemy deep strikes, drop pods, and aircraft that would hurt your gun line.
• Don't be scared to bring an ally. Admech and SolarAux shore up holes in what our armies can do. Likewise, for some Legions it makes sense to go the other way around. Playing as admech and then allying in your legion can have major benefits for less tax.
• Play your list a few times against different armies. Tweak things a little, but develop a feel for what works and what doesn't before you make massive changes. Don't be scared to proxy models to get a feeling for how units work.
• Be very mindful of your deployment. You can loose an entire turn of shooting or movement by not thinking through how you place things. For a slow inflexible army like a legion, this is a big deal.

This really ballooned, but I do think it all ties together into what you're feeling right now- the new player experience of playing an army and figuring out what works. I hope this helps you out

[defl0]

It depends on your legion. I think raven guard in rhinos are spectacular.

 

Especially since most tournies seem to be moving towards 7th ed rules so you get an objective secured rhino.

 

In short rhinos are good for protection against small arms and as cheap scoring units. (In 7th) But your opponent can and will eliminate them if they need too. So you can't put anything important in them unless you are going to use the rhinos to alpha strike