Daemon Princes and Possession

[Allart01]

Just a thought I'd like to discuss with you.

One of the main problems of becoming a Daemon Prince is that the farther you get from the Eye, the more you need to sustain your form in the mortal realm with costant slaughter/sacrifices/althars etc, like Angron on Armageddon.

Now, since minor daemons can possess Marines, wouldn't it be possible for a Daemon Prince to avoid losing his form by taking the body of one of his Astartes pawns?

Sure, his powers will be limited, and maybe he'll have to kill his host to get out of him, but his fun time in real space will last a little more.

What do you guys and gals think?

[tikhunt]

I think that sounds perfectly reasonable, as far as I can tell possessed marines stay around until they die but they are no where near the same as if the daemon was itself so I'd apply that to Greater Daemons too.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'm pretty sure that was what was going on in the Ultramarines movie. I'm putting a play-by-play in spoilers.

 

During the course of the movie, a Daemon Prince possesses a Space Marine, who shows few outward signs of possession, but only acts as a mildly enhanced marine. He wishes to undergo a long realspace voyage in this body, but is later forced to turn into a giant Daemonic monster to fight off attackers.
 

After this, the Daemon Prince then comments that he'll need a new body and attempts to possess a prisoner.

 

I'd interpret this to mean that a Daemon Prince can possess an individual and effectively act as a Possessed Chaos Lord (an option that's available in the Crimson Slaughter supplement), and can choose to ascend to full-on Daemon Prince form, but ascending greatly limits his time in realspace.

 

I suppose a Daemon Prince could possess a host and travel with his warband until they enter battle, at which point he Ascends. If he survives the battle, he could then possess a new host to preserve himself until the next battle.

[KaosRaptor]

The only real problem I see with this idea (and please note, I've got no clue whether I'm right) is that Possessed are usually formed from the joining of an Astartes and a relatively minor Daemon are they not?

 

And these minor Daemons rupture the body of the Astartes, swelling with power/mutations and whatnot. Their form literally cracks and remoulds itself to suit the whim of said minor Daemon.

 

So if a more powerful Daemon (like a Daemon Prince, for example) was summoned into or otherwise occupied such a host, couldn't the host maybe, y'know, explode? I'm not sure whether or not a Daemon Prince could tone down their power to fit in a weaker host.

 

Again, could be totally wrong!

[Malios]

If a Daemon Prince wanted to stay in the material realm, it'd somehow find a way to do it. Even if it had to bind 20 mortal bodies into one big body.

 

Tabletop rules aside, daemon princes don't necessarily always take the same shape and form of a brutish humanoid. They are creatures of the immaterium after all who possess the power to shape entire worlds if they so desired. That means they could be as technically large or small as the daemon prince willed it to be provided their form suited some need for their respective patron.

 

A daemon prince of Khorne's material form for example could be that of a planetary sized bronze skull large enough to consume planets like they were a complimentary steak.

 

A daemon prince of slaanesh on the other hand could take the physical form of a desert spoon who infects its user with an insatiable gluttony that decimates  populations.

 

A Daemon Prince of Nurgle's material form could be that of a billion microscopic viruses that invade living bodies and turns entire hive city populations into (zombie) minions enslaved to its single consciousness.

 

Could a daemon prince be mortal, or even astartes sized? Fluff-wise, yes. There's even a model example in the 3.5ed codex. Tabletop-wise on the other hand... different story. Players from the wysiwyg section will want to see a monstrous creature on a 65mm base.

 

Food for thought anyway.

[Lord Pariah]

*notes down the entire thread*

[Xenith]

The only real problem I see with this idea (and please note, I've got no clue whether I'm right) is that Possessed are usually formed from the joining of an Astartes and a relatively minor Daemon are they not?

 

And these minor Daemons rupture the body of the Astartes, swelling with power/mutations and whatnot. Their form literally cracks and remoulds itself to suit the whim of said minor Daemon.

 

So if a more powerful Daemon (like a Daemon Prince, for example) was summoned into or otherwise occupied such a host, couldn't the host maybe, y'know, explode? I'm not sure whether or not a Daemon Prince could tone down their power to fit in a weaker host.

 

Again, could be totally wrong!

 

You said it yourself, the mutation of the host body is at the whim of the daemon.

 

If the daemon prince didn't want the body to be mutated, he wouldn't be mutated.

[Carrack]

If losing their ties to reality was such a major concern, would becoming a Daemon Prince be the goal of the majority of Chaos Marines as it is says in the codex? I think there must be a relatively easy way to return from the warp, either in their own body, or in the body of another, or the immortality of ascension would not be any different than the immortality of the soul that dies and goes to the warp.

[Allart01]

If losing their ties to reality was such a major concern, would becoming a Daemon Prince be the goal of the majority of Chaos Marines as it is says in the codex? I think there must be a relatively easy way to return from the warp, either in their own body, or in the body of another, or the immortality of ascension would not be any different than the immortality of the soul that dies and goes to the warp.

 

It is definitely pointed out as a major concern in the fluff.

Also, there is one suble difference between being an immortal soul in the warp and being a Daemon Prince.

The first one gets eaten by deamons for all eternity, the second one eats.

[Carrack]

 

If losing their ties to reality was such a major concern, would becoming a Daemon Prince be the goal of the majority of Chaos Marines as it is says in the codex? I think there must be a relatively easy way to return from the warp, either in their own body, or in the body of another, or the immortality of ascension would not be any different than the immortality of the soul that dies and goes to the warp.

 

 

It is definitely pointed out as a major concern in the fluff.

 

 

Also, there is one suble difference between being an immortal soul in the warp and being a Daemon Prince.

The first one gets eaten by deamons for all eternity, the second one eats.

 

True, but the rewards must out way the drawbacks or so many CSM would not be striving for it. Unless they were all deluded into thinking it was a good deal, which could very well be the case.

 

Good point on the differences of immortality

[Allart01]

 

 

 

If losing their ties to reality was such a major concern, would becoming a Daemon Prince be the goal of the majority of Chaos Marines as it is says in the codex? I think there must be a relatively easy way to return from the warp, either in their own body, or in the body of another, or the immortality of ascension would not be any different than the immortality of the soul that dies and goes to the warp.

 

 

It is definitely pointed out as a major concern in the fluff.

 

 

Also, there is one suble difference between being an immortal soul in the warp and being a Daemon Prince.

The first one gets eaten by deamons for all eternity, the second one eats.

 

True, but the rewards must out way the drawbacks or so many CSM would not be striving for it. Unless they were all deluded into thinking it was a good deal, which could very well be the case.

 

Good point on the differences of immortality

 

Well, I think it's still worth it, from a CSM point of view.

First, you can't die.

This means you can finally draw breath, after spending centuries or millennia in a struggle for survival, hunted by the imperium, by daemons, by other chaos marines, maybe even backstabbed by your own men... this all ends with immortality.

Second, you became a small god, with your daemon world to rule and shape according to your wishes and all the nice powers that this means.

Third, no human without a consistent plot armor will ever stand a chance against you.

 

there are a few downsides (there always are, when dealing with chaos) but It's not that bad, methinks... :)

[Malios]

Indeed. To expand upon Khârn the Bloody's above post, one must look at things from the perspective of a renegade in the warp to really understand the appeal of daemonhood.

 

Generally speaking, when a renegade declares, or is declared that they are a renegade, they are immediately cut off from all supply from the Imperium. With nowhere to resupply themself, and being hunted consistently by the vast resources of the Imperium, your renegade quickly comes to the decision that if he (in this particular scenario we're imagining a renegade is a space marine of some nature) has to take what he cannot produce (weapons, food, water, fuel, specialist crew, machines, tools, breatheable air etc) by force. Such resorts to piratical raiding, or if the renegade had a sufficiently sized raiding force, planetary invasions. Some battles will be won, others will be lost. Damage will occur, some of which can be repaired and some that can't. Some specialists like the tech enginseer or apothecary may be killed off in the efforts which forces your renegade to conduct more raids for suitable replacements if they can't train themselves a replacement.

 

Eventually, such raids capture the attention of the Imperium. Larger battle ships begin patroling your favourite raiding spots and it becomes harder and harder to get what you want. In the face of such, your renegade decides to find somewhere to lie low and disappear for a bit: a backwater world, an abandoned mining complex on an asteroid to name a few examples. Your renegade may feel safe for a time, but the Imperium has agents who are trained to mercilessly scour for such places and in most cases your renegade's hiding places will be flushed out until they find themself with no other option but the nearest warpstorm.

 

Once your renegade makes the damning decision and crosses the barrier, they quickly realise that the warp is an even more horrifyingly dangerous place. A good way to explain it is that the warp is like an immaterial sea to which your renegade's ship is a submarine traveling through it. The problem though is that sea is riddled with daemons who consistently gnaw and thrash against your renegade's ship in titanic waves, fighting desperately to break open (or lure themselves into) your renegade's ship to kill all of the crew inside it. This is occuring ALL of the time to which there is no respite or peace. 95% of the time, the gellar fields will hold, but on those rare 5% moments, your renegade and his crew are forced to expend valuable (and probably dwindling) resources in desperate efforts to purge the ship from its invaders.

 

But, the daemons aren't the only threat of the warp.

 

Eventually, the maddening effects of the warp will start to deteriorate the discipline and condition of the ship's crew. Suicides and deaths will increase, mutations start to occur amongst the crew and misshapen horrors that used to be the crew are now stalking the lower levels and hunting the labourers. To make matters worse, the discipline of even your space marine brothers begins to crack: your renegade is forced to put down some of his brothers who lost their minds to the raving insanity of the warp and others whom have fought long centuries beside him now poisonously question your renegade's decisions and authority. Some through sheer sense are put in their place, others are forced to be made examples of through their deaths. Not only does such degradation further drain the already dwindling resources of fighting men and weapons, but the paranoia born from such makes even the relatively safe confines of the ship a dangerous place.

 

Eventually your renegade's ship comes into contact with those areas throughout the warp where things become a little bit calmer: rare daemon worlds not infested with legions of daemons trying to claim your souls (and potentially your skulls). Ancient space hulks gliding themselves through the currents of the warp that offer some form of defencive position against the legions of daemons. Entire planetary systems with some form of stability from the harshness of the warp to name but a few examples. Who knows, this particular world or hulk your renegade finds may even be able to sustain life, even if it is in some twisted form due to the effects of the warp. All of this sounds far too good to be true... and indeed it IS far too good to be true. To your renegade's disgust, he notices that another renegade warband has already taken residency of such a prize.

 

Dealing with another renegade warband is always a risky affair: sometimes your renegade will strike lucky and trade with the enemy warband with no incident. But, maybe that renegade leader wants your ship because it has less damage? Maybe your renegade wants the enemy warband's ship because it is more powerful? Maybe your renegade will underestimate the enemy warband's strength and be chased from the system with even less resources then it had to start off with? Maybe your renegade has the larger warband, but can he trust his subordinates not to betray him on the attack? Maybe he's secretly making contact with subordinates of the enemy leader in order to stage a mutiny before he himself commits his warband to battle? Eventually, your renegade warband attacks and wins: he now has two ships to his name, but to his horror he's discovered that the vessel was an Iron Warrior's vessel. The Iron Warriors aren't happy about this and your renegade finds his small fleet on the run again, this time from a shattered legion with far superior resources.

 

Does he flee, lose his reputation by doing so and risk dying to the blades of his subordinates? Does he instead withdraw and choose to capture more ships to deter the individual Iron Warriors warbands with force? Does he choose to fight and die with honour and pride intact? Does he damn all personal freedom and try to join the Black Legion to stop the Iron Warrior's hunt? Will Abaddon even accept the renegade and his warband? All of these decisions cost yet more valuable resources in the process.

 

 

The moral of the scenario is that life for a renegade is not easy. It's full of paranoia, bloodshed, danger and survival of the fittest. It's only natural that a renegade in such conditions would strive to become something far greater then they are, even for an astartes... and that's where the promise of daemonhood comes into it. For the chance to become immortal and near god-like amongst your peers is a chance and an offer that is very, very hard to refuse considering. So much so that the mere temptation of something too good to be true is strong enough to blind one of its downsides: being trapped to the whim of the patron god for all eternity.

[Allart01]

Thank you for your contribute, Malios.

That was an awesome post.