Taking more units than outlined in a formation?

[Ovidius Incertus]

While the units outlined in a formation (e.g. BA Battle Company or DE Kabalite Raiding Party) are obviously the minimum, are those units the maximum/only units allowable for that detachment?

 

For example, the Kabalite Raiding Party fills all the possible troop slots for the DE Realspace Raiders detachment (p. 110 C:DE), but leaves an optional HQ, some FA, HS and Elites slots open.  Can one fill those empty optional slots and still get the command benefits?  The only restrictions placed on the formation are dedicated transports, so I would think you can add units until the FOC is maxed out or you run out of points.  Yay or nay?

 

Secondly, is a unit that is taken in addition to an HQ and explicitly outside the FOC limitations required to follow formation restrictions?  The KRP requires taking the Court of the Archon and includes the restriction that "All units in this Formation, except the Archon, must take a Raider or Venom Dedicated transport if they have the option to do so."  The CotA can take a DT, but it is also a unit that stands outside the FOC.  The CotA should be required to take the DT, correct?

[Kristoff]

While the units outlined in a formation (e.g. BA Battle Company or DE Kabalite Raiding Party) are obviously the minimum, are those units the maximum/only units allowable for that detachment?

 

For example, the Kabalite Raiding Party fills all the possible troop slots for the DE Realspace Raiders detachment (p. 110 C:DE), but leaves an optional HQ, some FA, HS and Elites slots open.  Can one fill those empty optional slots and still get the command benefits?  The only restrictions placed on the formation are dedicated transports, so I would think you can add units until the FOC is maxed out or you run out of points.  Yay or nay?

A unit can only be part of one Detachment at a time (and Formations are Detachments). There are times where a Formation is made up of multiple Formations, but then in order for the lesser Formations to have an affect, the super-Formation must specifically state that their Special Rules apply.

 

So, in your case, they would either have access to the Formation's Special Rules or the Detachment's Command Benefits, but not both (unless specifically stated, of course).

 

Secondly, is a unit that is taken in addition to an HQ and explicitly outside the FOC limitations required to follow formation restrictions?  The KRP requires taking the Court of the Archon and includes the restriction that "All units in this Formation, except the Archon, must take a Raider or Venom Dedicated transport if they have the option to do so."  The CotA can take a DT, but it is also a unit that stands outside the FOC.  The CotA should be required to take the DT, correct?

Correct. Just because a unit does not fill a Role slot of a Role Detachment does not mean it gets to ignore the requirements of a Formation.

[Lucien Eilam]

No. A Formation is a set of specific units. You can't add to it beyond the units it lists and the options available in those unit entries. The Raiding Party doesn't have an organisation chart, there are no "slots" to fill, empty or otherwise. It has nothing to do with the Realspace Raiders Detachment at all, any more than it does a Combined Arms or Allies or Wolves Unleashed Detachment.

 

And since it doesn't have a FOC, whether a unit takes up a slot on one is irrelevant. The Court of the Archon is a unit, is not an Archon, and it can take a dedicated transport. Therefore, per the Formation's rules, it must do so.

[Kristoff]

No. A Formation is a set of specific units. You can't add to it beyond the units it lists and the options available in those unit entries. The Raiding Party doesn't have an organisation chart, there are no "slots" to fill, empty or otherwise. It has nothing to do with the Realspace Raiders Detachment at all, any more than it does a Combined Arms or Allies or Wolves Unleashed Detachment.

 

And since it doesn't have a FOC, whether a unit takes up a slot on one is irrelevant. The Court of the Archon is a unit, is not an Archon, and it can take a dedicated transport. Therefore, per the Formation's rules, it must do so.

Actually Formations DO have FOCs. But instead of using Roles like classic Detachments, they have an FOC list of very specific units they can include. Some Formations do allow variances, such as Dedicated Transports allowed, forced, or disallowed, but they have to be specifically listed.

[Lucien Eilam]

No they don't. Force Organisation Chart is a specific thing defined in the rules, showing min/max units by battlefield role. Optional units in the Formation list isn't the same thing.

[Kristoff]

No they don't. Force Organisation Chart is a specific thing defined in the rules, showing min/max units by battlefield role. Optional units in the Formation list isn't the same thing.

They do have a FOC, going by the classic, real-world definition. Yes, they aren't the fancy pictures shown in the rulebook an codices (well, except for the Decurion), but it is a force's organization list that is of a minimalist chart.

 

Optional units are kind of the same thing, kind of not, but they DO have to be listed where not part of a cohesive list. Dedicated Tranpsports are units in and of themselves, but can be purchased with a unit for the same selection. A Formation of a Platoon Command Squad and 4 Heavy Weapon Squads wouldn't be able to include the Conscripts or Infantry Squads of an Infantry Platoon, though.

[Lucien Eilam]

Going by the Warhammer 40,000, in-the-actual-rulebook definition, they don't.