L30n1d4s Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 How would you do a GK Supplement (i.e. like Champions of Fenris, Waaaaggghh Gazkhull, etc.)? Below is my stab at a GK Supplement: --------------------------- VANGUARD OF TITAN SUPPLEMENT ---------------------- Warlord Traits - 1 - WL allows all friendly units within 12" to re-roll 1s when trying to harness Warp Charges 2 - WL gains +1 Psychic Mastery Level 3 - WL has Smash USR 4 - WL grants himself and his unit +1 WS 5 - WL has Shred for his shooting and close combat attacks 6 - WL has Eternal Warrior ---------------------- Relics - 1 - Armor of Justice -- Replaces models armor. Artificier Armor that gives model a 2+ save, a Personal Teleporter, and +1 WS 2 - Banner of Heroes -- Paladins may take instead of a Brotherhood Banner. Gives squad Fearless and gives all friendly GK units within 12" +1A. 3 - Wrath of Titan -- Psycannon with following profile: 24" range, S7 AP4, Salvo 3/6, Rending, Master-crafted 4 - Stave of Containment -- Librarian may replace his Warding Stave with this. Master-Crafted Warding Stave that allows Librarian and his unit to automatically activate the Force power at no Warp Charge cost (cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch) 5 - Blades of Fury -- Pair of Nemesis Falchions (so +1A from two weapons) with following profile: S: User AP2, Mastercrafted 6 - Book of Malcador -- Before deployment, bearer can choose D3 units from the same detachment to give one of the following rules to (all units must take same rule): Scout, Zealot, Hit and Run, Objective Secured ---------------------- Spear of Titan Detachment HQ - 1-3 TR - 2-6 EL - 1-4 FA - 0-3 HS - 0-3 LOW - 0-1 Fortification - 0-1 Special Rules: 1 - Herald of Titan -- WL may re-roll WL Trait if desired 2 - Rites of Combat -- Any unit in this detachment that has the Banishment Pyschic Power may choose before deployment to replace it with the Quicksilver Psychic Power (2 Warp Charges): Blessing that targets Psyker. If successful, gives Psyker and his unit +2 Initiative and Relentless USR. ---------------------- Heroes of Legend Formation -Lord Kaldor Draigo -1 Paladin Squad (must take BHB or Banner of Heroes) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Warriors of Might -- Paladins have Eternal Warrior *Aid Unsought for -- Draigo's Gates of Infinity only scatters D6" when used ---------------------- Dreadknight Conclave Formation -2-4 Dreadknights (must start in Reserve) Special Rules: *Battle Fury -- If a Dreadknight from this formation is within 6" of another Dreadknight from this formation, then it gains Preferred Enemy USR *Against all Odds -- If a Dreadknight from this formation is within 3" of an Objective, it gains Rampage USR ---------------------- Guardians of the Flame Formation -Castellan Crowe -2 Purifier Squads Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Locus of Fire -- Cleansing Flame for all units in this formation reduced to one Warp Charge *Champion of the Purifiers -- Castellan Crowe can choose to use either Smash USR or Re-rolls all his saving throws when fighting in close combat outside of a challenge (he still gets to use both abilities simultaneously when in a challenge). ---------------------- Strike Vanguard Formation -2 Grey Knight Strike Squads (Justicar must take Teleporter Homer) -2 GK Terminator Squads Special Rules: *Objective Secured *Rites of Combat *Vanguard of Titan -- GK Strike Squads from this formation have Scout and Infiltrate USRs *Hammer of Retribution -- GK Terminators from this formation must start in reserve and may make reserve rolls starting Turn 1 ---------------------- Interceptor Wing Formation -2 Stormraven Gunships -2 Interceptor Squads (must start game embarked on Stormravens) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat (Interceptors only) *Precision Arrival -- Stormravens and Interceptors may choose to come in from reserves automatically on Turn 1. If not, then they roll to come in from Reserves normally starting on Turn 2. *Wings of Salvation -- In the turn they come in from Reserves, the Interceptors may attempt to assault an enemy unit and have the Fleet USR ---------------------- Purgator Cohort Formation -GK Librarian -2 GK Purgation Squads Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Astral Aim -- GK Purgation squads from this formation add 12" to their shooting range (any Template weapons instead become Torrent weapons) *Uncanny Prescience -- GK Librarian from this formation may pick a single power without rolling for it from the Divination discipline when rolling for Pyschic Powers ---------------------- Ancients of Titan Formation -GK Techmarine -1-3 GK Dreadnoughts (must all be upgraded to Venerable Dreadnoughts) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat (GK Techmarine only) *Master of Mars -- Techmarine from this formation can attempt to use the Blessing of the Omnissiah rule twice each shooting phase and may attempt to use it on the same or separate vehicles *Battleskill of the Ancients -- GK Dreadnoughts from this formation can choose to have the Tank Hunters, Skyfire, or Preferred Enemy USR at the start of each friendly turn, as long as they are within 6" of the Techmarine from this formation. 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Rurik the blessed Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 This is a great compendium of rules. Very good for a real supplement. good job! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Warlord traits look good. Hell of a lot better than our boring normal table. 1 - Armor of Justice -- Replaces models armor. Artificier Armor that gives model a 2+ save, a Personal Teleporter, and +1 WS Drop the +1WS, I'd make it grant +1A (more relevant, and otherwise it's an auto-replace for any non-Libby HQ) 2 - Banner of Heroes -- Paladins may take instead of a Brotherhood Banner. Gives squad Fearless and gives all friendly GK units within 12" +1A. The Nemesis Banner already does this (it's basically the Chapter's banner). I'd drop this out, banners are kinda meh anyway. 3 - Wrath of Titan -- Psycannon with following profile: 24" range, S7 AP4, Salvo 3/6, Rending, Master-crafted Little bland, TBH. If you make it too cheap, it's an auto-replace over the normal psycannon. If you make it too expensive, no one would bother. Also, this makes Librarians a little too good, unless you restrict it to only BC and GM. 4 - Stave of Containment -- Librarian may replace his Warding Stave with this. Master-Crafted Warding Stave that allows Librarian and his unit to automatically activate the Force power at no Warp Charge cost (cannot be blocked by Deny the Witch) Too powerful. Doesn't matter how you cost this, its an auto-include and will annoy people too much. Relics typically have some kind of drawback, or offer a buff that is reasonable for their cost. I'd make this grant the Psyker the 'Sanctuary' psychic power, and they can re-roll attempts to manifest the 'Sanctuary' power (kinda like the opposite of the Soul Glaive, which re-rolls for Force). 5 - Blades of Fury -- Pair of Nemesis Falchions (so +1A from two weapons) with following profile: S: User AP2, Mastercrafted Drop them to AP3, grant Shred. 6 - Book of Malcador -- Before deployment, bearer can choose D3 units from the same detachment to give one of the following rules to (all units must take same rule): Scout, Zealot, Hit and Run, Objective Secured I like the idea of resurrecting 'Grand Strategy' from 5th, it was far and away my favourite hero rule (representing the incredible strategic and tactical minds of the Chapter's greatest heroes). I'd have it grant 'Scout', 'Hit and Run', 'Furious Charge' or 'Shred'. They're all relevant abilities, and they encourage you to use the buff on different units. 'Hit and Run' on Interceptors is hilarious, as is 'Furious Charge'. 'Shred' on Terminators or Dreadknights is hellish for the enemy, as is 'Scout'. 2 - Rites of Combat -- Any unit in this detachment that has the Banishment Pyschic Power may choose before deployment to replace it with the Quicksilver Psychic Power (2 Warp Charges): Blessing that targets Psyker. If successful, gives Psyker and his unit +2 Initiative and Relentless USR. I like the idea, I do, but psychic powers all belong to Psychic Disciplines now. I know Banishment sucks in 90% of matches, but it is our lore. I'd replace Quicksilver with 'Fleet'. Re-rolling Run and Charge dice is hella stronk for a melee army. Heroes of Legend Formation -Lord Kaldor Draigo -1 Paladin Squad (must take BHB or Banner of Heroes) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Warriors of Might -- Paladins have Eternal Warrior *Aid Unsought for -- Draigo's Gates of Infinity only scatters D6" when used Nice Dreadknight Conclave Formation -2-4 Dreadknights (must start in Reserve) Special Rules: *Battle Fury -- If a Dreadknight from this formation is within 6" of another Dreadknight from this formation, then it gains Preferred Enemy USR *Against all Odds -- If a Dreadknight from this formation is within 3" of an Objective, it gains Rampage USR Extra noice Guardians of the Flame Formation -Castellan Crowe -2 Purifier Squads Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Locus of Fire -- Cleansing Flame for all units in this formation reduced to one Warp Charge *Champion of the Purifiers -- Castellan Crowe can choose to use either Smash USR or Re-rolls all his saving throws when fighting in close combat outside of a challenge (he still gets to use both abilities simultaneously when in a challenge). Nah, you can't screw with WC costs, breaks too many rules. I'd simply grant them re-rolls to manifest 'Cleansing Flame', its actually much more powerful. Strike Vanguard Formation -2 Grey Knight Strike Squads (Justicar must take Teleporter Homer) -2 GK Terminator Squads Special Rules: *Objective Secured *Rites of Combat *Vanguard of Titan -- GK Strike Squads from this formation have Scout and Infiltrate USRs *Hammer of Retribution -- GK Terminators from this formation must start in reserve and may make reserve rolls starting Turn 1 Making Strikes relevant, 10/10 Interceptor Wing Formation -2 Stormraven Gunships -2 Interceptor Squads (must start game embarked on Stormravens) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat (Interceptors only) *Precision Arrival -- Stormravens and Interceptors may choose to come in from reserves automatically on Turn 1. If not, then they roll to come in from Reserves normally starting on Turn 2. *Wings of Salvation -- In the turn they come in from Reserves, the Interceptors may attempt to assault an enemy unit and have the Fleet USR Nah, charging from Reserve is outright banned in the main rulebook anyway, so no dice. Rest looks cool. Purgator Cohort Formation -GK Librarian -2 GK Purgation Squads Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Astral Aim -- GK Purgation squads from this formation add 12" to their shooting range (any Template weapons instead become Torrent weapons) *Uncanny Prescience -- GK Librarian from this formation may pick a single power without rolling for it from the Divination discipline when rolling for Pyschic Powers Nah, I'd just give him re-rolls when choosing powers from Divination. Otherwise looks good. I might give the Purgators Relentless instead of 12" to their shooting, its cleaner. Ancients of Titan Formation -GK Techmarine -1-3 GK Dreadnoughts (must all be upgraded to Venerable Dreadnoughts) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat (GK Techmarine only) *Master of Mars -- Techmarine from this formation can attempt to use the Blessing of the Omnissiah rule twice each shooting phase and may attempt to use it on the same or separate vehicles *Battleskill of the Ancients -- GK Dreadnoughts from this formation can choose to have the Tank Hunters, Skyfire, or Preferred Enemy USR at the start of each friendly turn, as long as they are within 6" of the Techmarine from this formation. Yeah its okay (shrug) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think the most likely candidate for a Suppliment is; Grey Knights: Vengeance of Mortain With the return of Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. With more than just a single Squad entry (looking at you Legion of the Damned!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Y'know what would be really awesome? Formations for each Brotherhood. Not the awful forged narrative Formation in our codex, but actually relevant. So for example, First Brotherhood has all the coolest gear, most vehicles, and most Dreadknights. They're in charge of the armoury, and generally solve all problems with overwhelming firepower. etc etc for each Brotherhood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No no no no no!!!! That was one of the worst changes Ward intorduced to our chapter. :( We're not 10 Codex Companies, er Brothehoods. :( Brotherhood of the Fleet. Brotherhood of the Armour. Brotherhood of the Scouts. /blerg In our current incarnation there should only be three distinct 'Brotherhoods'. The Purifier Order, the Paladins, and everyone else. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 No no no no no!!!! That was one of the worst changes Ward intorduced to our chapter. We're not 10 Codex Companies, er Brothehoods. Brotherhood of the Fleet. Brotherhood of the Armour. Brotherhood of the Scouts. /blerg In our current incarnation there should only be three distinct 'Brotherhoods'. The Purifier Order, the Paladins, and everyone else. It makes a lot of sense man. Even as unorthodox as Grey Knights are, they still need a proper military structure and chain of command. Also, the 8 Grand Masters hail back to the original founding leaders of the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 *grumble* The number of Grand master was, and should ever be, tied to the original number of Marines Malcador recruited to start the GK. Nothing to do with Codex approved Companies... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 *grumble* The number of Grand master was, and should ever be, tied to the original number of Marines Malcador recruited to start the GK. Nothing to do with Codex approved Companies... Well Brotherhoods aren't even vaguely Codex in formation dude. They're a completely different military structure. Justicars are far more than just Sergeants, they're the spiritual and psychic conduit of the whole squad, that binds them together and manages their psychic power (it differs between battle-brothers, and has to be conserved just like ammunition). And so one and so forth. The reason they'd organize around each of the 8 Grand Masters is because A: its easy to determine authority and B: it prevents, outside of a conclave of agreement, an unsustainable amount of Grey Knights being deployed and potentially lost on any one mission. Even Brotherhoods are a pretty loose structure, they change constantly due to battle losses and re-training in different squad types, and even they rarely fight as one. That then leaves the Supreme Grandmaster to command the Chapter's best strength, which are the Paladins (who sit outside both the officer cadre and normal Brotherhood command structure, but are basically 'officers in waiting' as well), and the Castellan to lead the Purifiers (they're actually deployed under the Supreme Grand Masters authority, due to their extreme rarity and specialised duties). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Which *coincindently* add up to 10... Dat Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3935945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Which *coincindently* add up to 10... Dat Codex. Eh. I wouldn't count the Paladins as a Brotherhood. They almost never deploy together, only on the express authority of the Supreme Grand Master. And the Purifiers are so few in number, they are more like specialised Librarians than a fighting force. Again, never fight as one, and deployed sparingly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3936002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 @Reclusiarch Darius -- Some really good points you made there, appreciate the time you put into them. I especially appreciate your feedback about the Purifiers (good point about Warp charges; changed to just ignoring Perils when using Cleansing Flame), about the Interceptor Wing (changed to give them Fleet/Rage whe charging out of Stormraven), and the Armor of Justice (changed to increase Invul save of model). I have to disagree with yout about the Rites of Combat rule (i.e. swapping out Banishment for Quicksilver). I know Banishment is fluffy, but you can still choose to keep it (i.e. if fighting Daemons) and this is included to represent a GK force which is attacking an enemy which has not Daemonic manifestation yet, but that the GK leadership has divined are susceptible to a allowing a Daemonic incursion (i.e. say an Ork Waaggghh that has captured Daemonic relics, or an Eldar Craftworld that has begin to draw on the power of Khaine too much, or an Astra Militarum regiment which is commanded by a Psychic leader who is "toying" with dark pacts). In all these cases, the GKs have to adpapt their tactics to fight "mundane" enemies and destroy them before they can become a conduit to allow Daemons in. Gameplay-wise, having the option to swap out a useless power (unless you are fighting Daemons) for one that gives the outnumbered GKs an edge in combat (i.e. increased Initiative) and also makes PA Grey Knights able to use their Heavy Weapons at full capacity (i.e. Relentles Psycannons and Psilencers) means that units like Strike Squads, Purifiers, Inteceptors, and Purgation squads are much more viable and even Terminators and Paladins can get an edge in close combat by striking at I5 to make up for their high model cost and low numbers (relative to other codexes). Below is my revisions on the Supplement, based on some of the input you provided and my own review as well: --------------------------- VANGUARD OF TITAN SUPPLEMENT 2.0 ---------------------- Warlord Traits - 1 - WL allows all friendly units within 12" to re-roll 1s when trying to harness Warp Charges 2 - WL gains +1 Psychic Mastery Level 3 - WL has Smash USR 4 - WL grants himself and his unit +1 WS 5 - WL has Shred for his shooting and close combat attacks 6 - WL has Eternal Warrior ---------------------- Relics - 1 - Armor of Justice -- Replaces models armor. Artificier Armor that gives model a 2+ save, a Personal Teleporter, and +1 to the model's Invul Save (6++ if no Invul already). 2 - Banner of Heroes -- Paladins may take instead of a Brotherhood Banner. Gives squad Fearless and gives all friendly GK units within 12" Preferred Enemy. 3 - Wrath of Titan -- Psycannon with following profile: 24" range, S7 AP4, Salvo 3/6, Rending, Master-crafted 4 - Stave of Containment -- Librarian may replace his Warding Stave with this. Master-Crafted Warding Stave that allows Librarian and/or his unit to re-roll one failed Psychic Test a turn. 5 - Blades of Fury -- Pair of Nemesis Falchions (so +1A from two weapons) with following profile: S: User AP2, Mastercrafted 6 - Book of Malcador -- Before deployment, bearer can choose D3 units from the same detachment to give one of the following rules to (all units must take same rule): Scout, Furious Charge, Hit and Run, Objective Secured ---------------------- Spear of Titan Detachment HQ - 1-3 TR - 2-6 EL - 1-4 FA - 0-3 HS - 0-3 LOW - 0-1 Fortification - 0-1 Special Rules: 1 - Herald of Titan -- WL may re-roll WL Trait if desired 2 - Rites of Combat -- Any unit in this detachment that has the Banishment Pyschic Power may choose before deployment to replace it with the Quicksilver Psychic Power (1 Warp Charge): Blessing that targets Psyker. If successful, gives Psyker and his unit +1 Initiative and Relentless USR. ---------------------- Heroes of Legend Formation -Lord Kaldor Draigo -1 Paladin Squad (must take BHB or Banner of Heroes) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Warriors of Might -- Paladins have Eternal Warrior *Aid Unsought for -- Draigo's Gates of Infinity only scatters D6" when used ---------------------- Dreadknight Conclave Formation -2-4 Dreadknights (must start in Reserve) Special Rules: *Battle Fury -- If a Dreadknight from this formation is within 6" of another Dreadknight from this formation, then it gains Preferred Enemy USR *Against all Odds -- If a Dreadknight from this formation is within 3" of an Objective, it gains Rampage USR ---------------------- Guardians of the Flame Formation -Castellan Crowe -2 Purifier Squads Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Purity of Will -- All units in this formation ignore any Perils of the Warp from attempting to cast Cleansing Flame. *Champion of the Purifiers -- Castellan Crowe can choose to use either Smash USR or Re-rolls all his saving throws when fighting in close combat outside of a challenge (he still gets to use both abilities simultaneously when fighting in a challenge). ---------------------- Strike Vanguard Formation -2 Grey Knight Strike Squads (Justicar must take Teleporter Homer) -2 GK Terminator Squads Special Rules: *Objective Secured *Rites of Combat *Vanguard of Titan -- GK Strike Squads from this formation have Scout and Infiltrate USRs *Hammer of Retribution -- GK Terminators from this formation must start in reserve and may make reserve rolls starting Turn 1 ---------------------- Interceptor Wing Formation -2 Stormraven Gunships -2 Interceptor Squads (must start game embarked on Stormravens) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat (Interceptors only) *Precision Arrival -- Stormravens and Interceptors may choose to come in from reserves automatically on Turn 1. If not, then they roll to come in from Reserves normally starting on Turn 2. *Wings of Fury -- In any turn they disembark from the Stormravens from this formation, the Interceptors from this formation have Fleet and Rage USRs. ---------------------- Purgator Cohort Formation -GK Librarian -2 GK Purgation Squads Special Rules: *Rites of Combat *Astral Aim -- GK Purgation squads from this formation add 12" to their shooting range (any Template weapons instead become Torrent weapons). *Uncanny Prescience -- GK Librarian from this formation may choose to re-roll any rolls when rolling for Pyschic Powers on the Divination discpline table. ---------------------- Ancients of Titan Formation -GK Techmarine -1-3 GK Dreadnoughts (must all be upgraded to Venerable Dreadnoughts) Special Rules: *Rites of Combat (GK Techmarine only) *Master of Mars -- Techmarine from this formation can attempt to use the Blessing of the Omnissiah rule twice each shooting phase and may attempt to use it on the same or separate vehicles *Battleskill of the Ancients -- GK Dreadnoughts from this formation can choose to have the Tank Hunters, Skyfire, or Preferred Enemy USR at the start of each friendly turn, as long as they are within 6" of the Techmarine from this formation. 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Reclusiarch Darius Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Some really good points you made there, appreciate the time you put into them. I especially appreciate your feedback about the Purifiers (good point about Warp charges; changed to just ignoring Perils when using Cleansing Flame), about the Interceptor Wing (changed to give them Fleet/Rage whe charging out of Stormraven), and the Armor of Justice (changed to increase Invul save of model). No worries man. Ignoring Perils...I think thats too far. Re-rolling the test is more powerful once again, as it basically does that, plus it saves you when you fail to manifest but don't Peril. Fleet and Rage is a little OP lol. Fleet is fantastic by itself, Interceptors don't need Rage as well. Maybe Hatred or Zealot? have to disagree with yout about the Rites of Combat rule (i.e. swapping out Banishment for Quicksilver). I know Banishment is fluffy, but you can still choose to keep it (i.e. if fighting Daemons) and this is included to represent a GK force which is attacking an enemy which has not Daemonic manifestation yet, but that the GK leadership has divined are susceptible to a allowing a Daemonic incursion (i.e. say an Ork Waaggghh that has captured Daemonic relics, or an Eldar Craftworld that has begin to draw on the power of Khaine too much, or an Astra Militarum regiment which is commanded by a Psychic leader who is "toying" with dark pacts). In all these cases, the GKs have to adpapt their tactics to fight "mundane" enemies and destroy them before they can become a conduit to allow Daemons in. I'm saying you're breaking the conventions of 7th. All Psychic Powers now belong in a Discipline. We have Sanctic, and yes Banishment sucks I know, but them's the breaks. Giving us an easy out against higher Initiative enemies is one of the reasons halberds got nerfed, remember? It made our Terminators too good, and it was an auto-include (although nerfing them to +1 Strength is pathetic). We're a specialist force. Normally, we don't even fight a single alien or non-daemonic threat. GK are simply too precious and rare a weapon to be used when conventional force (like lesser Marines) would do the job just as well. Being specialised comes with drawbacks. We can't just have a weapon or ability for every situation, we need some drawbacks to give our force flavour and character. Gameplay-wise, having the option to swap out a useless power (unless you are fighting Daemons) for one that gives the outnumbered GKs an edge in combat (i.e. increased Initiative) and also makes PA Grey Knights able to use their Heavy Weapons at full capacity (i.e. Relentles Psycannons and Psilencers) means that units like Strike Squads, Purifiers, Inteceptors, and Purgation squads are much more viable and even Terminators and Paladins can get an edge in close combat by striking at I5 to make up for their high model cost and low numbers (relative to other codexes). The real answer isn't a psychic power bandaid man. The real solution is to make our special weapons Assault weapons, not stupid Salvo or Heavy. That would make the need for Relentless minimal, but Terminators would still have an advantage (ie being able to fire Heavy profile all the time). We don't need higher Initiative. Faster melee armies need to have that edge on us, otherwise we're simply too good. That's why halberds were nerfed into the ground man. Going ahead or same time as Eldar and most MC's was crazy good and made the Terminators too strong (not to mention Purifiers). Anyway, otherwise I like what you're doing, and I hope someone at GW is taking notes. Supplements and formations don't have to be super OP, they just need to be reasonable and have some character to them. I think you've nailed that for the most part, and I like how you've tried to make some of our less stellar units viable or at least situationally brilliant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3936516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Which *coincindently* add up to 10... Dat Codex. Eh. I wouldn't count the Paladins as a Brotherhood. They almost never deploy together, only on the express authority of the Supreme Grand Master. And the Purifiers are so few in number, they are more like specialised Librarians than a fighting force. Again, never fight as one, and deployed sparingly. I think you just described veterans and terminators, both of which hail from the 1st company. I didn't like a set number for our chapter, it was one of those mysteries that was actually good thing and not a scape goat for sloppy writing. Then the Ward happened and things changed. I don't know how much detail the founding of the GK are described in the HH novels as I haven't read a single one, but I have a dreaded feeling that it may have been set in stone. I pray to the Emperor that I'm wrong. The 1,000 marine limit is set to prevent another HH by a single chapter, so they don't turn into a legion. I think the GK might be exempt from that, or they would have had a shock when they went to Fenris I also find it hard to imagine that the GK wil turn down a viable candidate for initiation just because they have enough. I've never read a novel where the GK had too many knights and didn't know what to do with them all EDIT: forgot to say, RD, could you split these posts up into another topic because I feel bad for spamming this one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3938440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I think you just described veterans and terminators, both of which hail from the 1st company. Yeah, but remember Paladins are quite different to a First Company of a conventional Chapter. They're the most martially skilled of the Chapter, and they can come from any Brotherhood. Provided they pass the trials required, even an initiate can become one (normally only senior battle-brothers would try, but practicality wins out over tradition with Knights). By comparison, in a conventional Chapter, battle-brothers are promoted or selected for First Company duty when they require reinforcements after battle losses, at the discretion of the First Company Captain. Likewise, a member of First Company might be selected to become a Sergeant in one of the battle or reserve Companies, or even serve in the 10th Company to train the Scouts. Paladins do none of those things. They're glory hounds, pure and simple. Their trials are completely their own, the Supreme Grand Master has no say in the matter (either do any of the other officers of the Chapter). Membership is only once you've proven yourself worthy, and Paladins do not have a fixed roster, they fluctuate like the Purifiers (albeit their numbers are much higher, due to more suitable applicants). Also, they have no officer or leadership duties, they're simply the most formidable warriors in the Chapter. Only the Supreme Grand Master can call them together as one force, and he almost never does that. It's true that many Brother-Captains and Grand Masters are chosen from the Paladins (especially for brevet promotions in the field, should such a leader fall in battle), and they are by definition well versed in strategy and tactics. However, they are not Justicars, and do not command other squads in battle. I didn't like a set number for our chapter, it was one of those mysteries that was actually good thing and not a scape goat for sloppy writing. Then the Ward happened and things changed. I don't know how much detail the founding of the GK are described in the HH novels as I haven't read a single one, but I have a dreaded feeling that it may have been set in stone. I pray to the Emperor that I'm wrong. The 1,000 marine limit is set to prevent another HH by a single chapter, so they don't turn into a legion. I think the GK might be exempt from that, or they would have had a shock when they went to Fenris I also find it hard to imagine that the GK wil turn down a viable candidate for initiation just because they have enough. I've never read a novel where the GK had too many knights and didn't know what to do with them all We don't have a set number. Where are you getting that from? None of the 8 Brotherhoods have a set number. They fluctuate according to battle losses and intake, as well as the emergence or receding of different squad specializations. Remember, unlike normal Marines, Grey Knights consider a 5-man squad still combat-effective. As mentioned in the codex, a Brotherhood can fall as low as 50% of normal size, but due to this precept they still consider themselves battle-ready (although of course, they'd be prioritizing reinforcement at that point). This is in stark contrast to a normal Chapter, where a Company at 50% strength would be withdrawn from the line of battle to recover. Paladins and Purifiers are not formal fighting formations. They almost never deploy as one force, nor is their size fixed in any way. The former takes any who will dare the trials and succeeds, the latter is extremely selective and virtually never gets beyond 40 strong. There are no reserve Brotherhoods or Scouts in the Chapter, Grey Knights don't have time for that. They need battle-ready warriors from the moment they finish training, hence why all new initiates fight as Terminator squads before any other role is entrusted to them. Again, practicality can win out over this (specialist squads might require urgent reinforcement etc), but the Chapter prefers not to risk the newbies too much. They want them to actually survive their first battles. The Chapter already has an absurd attrition rate, without the massive support the Chapter recieves, they'd never be able to sustain their losses. Therefore, at any one time, the Chapter could be as low as 500 warriors, or as high as 1500. It would really depend on the fortunes of the times. Also, you have to remember the vast majority of the Chapter are constantly deployed and scattered across the Imperium. Some of them even have semi-permanent duties at certain key fortresses of the Inquisition around the galaxy (I believe Grey Knights provide security at at least Nemesis Tessera, and possibly other bastions). EDIT: forgot to say, RD, could you split these posts up into another topic because I feel bad for spamming this one. Nah this is relevant. It's important we discuss the background, as half the point of formations is to represent the story of the Chapter. It's important we get that right first, then start handing out cool bonuses or interactions that people would actually use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3938484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I think you just described veterans and terminators, both of which hail from the 1st company.Yeah, but remember Paladins are quite different to a First Company of a conventional Chapter. They're the most martially skilled of the Chapter, and they can come from any Brotherhood. Provided they pass the trials required, even an initiate can become one (normally only senior battle-brothers would try, but practicality wins out over tradition with Knights). By comparison, in a conventional Chapter, battle-brothers are promoted or selected for First Company duty when they require reinforcements after battle losses, at the discretion of the First Company Captain. Likewise, a member of First Company might be selected to become a Sergeant in one of the battle or reserve Companies, or even serve in the 10th Company to train the Scouts. Paladins do none of those things. They're glory hounds, pure and simple. Their trials are completely their own, the Supreme Grand Master has no say in the matter (either do any of the other officers of the Chapter). Membership is only once you've proven yourself worthy, and Paladins do not have a fixed roster, they fluctuate like the Purifiers (albeit their numbers are much higher, due to more suitable applicants). Also, they have no officer or leadership duties, they're simply the most formidable warriors in the Chapter. Only the Supreme Grand Master can call them together as one force, and he almost never does that. It's true that many Brother-Captains and Grand Masters are chosen from the Paladins (especially for brevet promotions in the field, should such a leader fall in battle), and they are by definition well versed in strategy and tactics. However, they are not Justicars, and do not command other squads in battle. Paladins and veterans are both the best fighters in the chapter, they are only inducted into the paladins/veterans when they are deemed worthy. Of course Grey Knights need to go overboard and have extra trials, but they're essentially the same. I didn't like a set number for our chapter, it was one of those mysteries that was actually good thing and not a scape goat for sloppy writing. Then the Ward happened and things changed. I don't know how much detail the founding of the GK are described in the HH novels as I haven't read a single one, but I have a dreaded feeling that it may have been set in stone. I pray to the Emperor that I'm wrong. The 1,000 marine limit is set to prevent another HH by a single chapter, so they don't turn into a legion. I think the GK might be exempt from that, or they would have had a shock when they went to Fenris I also find it hard to imagine that the GK wil turn down a viable candidate for initiation just because they have enough. I've never read a novel where the GK had too many knights and didn't know what to do with them all We don't have a set number. Where are you getting that from? None of the 8 Brotherhoods have a set number. They fluctuate according to battle losses and intake, as well as the emergence or receding of different squad specializations. Remember, unlike normal Marines, Grey Knights consider a 5-man squad still combat-effective. As mentioned in the codex, a Brotherhood can fall as low as 50% of normal size, but due to this precept they still consider themselves battle-ready (although of course, they'd be prioritizing reinforcement at that point). This is in stark contrast to a normal Chapter, where a Company at 50% strength would be withdrawn from the line of battle to recover. "The Grey Knights Chapter is organised into brotherhoods, each one comparable in size to a Space Marine Battle Company." - 7th Ed GK Codex, CHAPTER ORGANISATION. "Each brotherhood contains roughly a hundred battle-brothers divided up into the various squads and formations of the Chapter." - 7th Ed GK Codex, CHAPTER ORGANISATION. Not sure if it was ambiguous in 5th Ed, but apparently the GK now abide by the Codex Astartes, even though I think they were in the warp (hidden by Sigilite) at the time of it's inception. Ironically no chapter brotherhood has more than 40 GK, as there is only the 4 squads listed in each, (terms, strikes, purifier, purgation) and only the first brotherhood is at full strength, a whopping 40 GK + champion + GKGM + 18 NDK. Adding up all the numbers, there are 158 GK in the galaxy, 98 paladins and 44 purifiers. I think they need to higher the bar a bit on the the trails if the paladin and purifier order nearly out number the standard GK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3938667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Paladins and veterans are both the best fighters in the chapter, they are only inducted into the paladins/veterans when they are deemed worthy. Of course Grey Knights need to go overboard and have extra trials, but they're essentially the same. You're missing the point. Normal Chapter protocols: The First Company is commanded by the First Captain, and is chosen by him alone from the rest of the Chapter's strength. Members are only chosen when reinforcement is required. First Company Marines can fight as Sternguard, Vanguard or Terminators as their needs and desires dictate (they're usually given a lot of leeway over their weapon and wargear selection). Note that some Chapters, most notable the Dark Angels and their successors, only deploy their First Company as Terminator squads. Grey Knight Chapter protocols: Paladins have a High Paladin, but he doesn't command them in battle (they deploy under the orders of the Supreme Grand Master). Paladins do not have a fixed size, and are only loosely organised into squads of their own choosing. They do not care about battle losses, they induct whomever passes the trials required. Purifiers select only on the basis of the applications soul. Either they have the required spiritual purity, or they do not. Battle experience means little, they take whoever fits the requirements. Their numbers are also not fixed, and by definition are extremely limited (they are no more than 50 strong at any one time). Again, they are lead by a Castellan, but they deploy with the Brotherhoods at the request of officers of the Chapter. They can always refuse, if their duties on Titan or battle losses make it too risky. Unlike Paladins, Purifiers have specific duties to the Chapter fortress-monastery, as well as rituals in consecrating Chapter wargear and weaponry. "The Grey Knights Chapter is organised into brotherhoods, each one comparable in size to a Space Marine Battle Company." - 7th Ed GK Codex, CHAPTER ORGANISATION. "Each brotherhood contains roughly a hundred battle-brothers divided up into the various squads and formations of the Chapter." - 7th Ed GK Codex, CHAPTER ORGANISATION. They're comparisons. The author is making a point that if you wanted to compare, a Brotherhood functions in much the same way as a normal Marine Company. They're similar in role, but not in organisation or squad makeup. Even their officers are completely different (Justicars more than just Sergeants, Brotherhood Champions more than just company Champions, and the Brotherhood has a junior and senior leader). The Grey Knights do not follow the Codex Astartes. They never have, and never will. You're misreading what is actually being said. Ironically no chapter brotherhood has more than 40 GK, as there is only the 4 squads listed in each, (terms, strikes, purifier, purgation) and only the first brotherhood is at full strength, a whopping 40 GK + champion + GKGM + 18 NDK. Adding up all the numbers, there are 158 GK in the galaxy, 98 paladins and 44 purifiers. I think they need to higher the bar a bit on the the trails if the paladin and purifier order nearly out number the standard GK. Again, you're misreading. The roster listed in the codex speaks of the Chapter in the closing stages of the 41st millennium. It doesn't list the actual strength of each squad, only their specialisation. So, any of those squads could be as low as 5, or as high as 10 in number. Also, the listings of vehicles and things like Dreadknights doesn't mean they're only used by that Brotherhood. All of those resources are shared between the Brotherhoods as need dictates. So, First Brotherhood is responsible for the Armoury, but in practise the Master of the Forge and the Tech-Marines run it. The codex makes it clear that the Grand Masters and Brother-Captains largely have ceremonial duties in that regard, they rarely actually get into such logistics (same for the Librarius, the Chief Librarian leads the Chapter's Librarians and sanctions their deployment with Brotherhoods). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3939078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 So where's our Master of the Fleet? Master of the Ordinance? Master of Scouts? That's why I dislike a Brotherhood being called 'of the Armoury'. They're not. They are Mordraks Brotherhood. Or Grey Knight Grand Master Stevedave's Brotherhood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3939351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Wouldn't it be nice to have a formation that makes bad units actualy useful. Let say one that requires buffs power armored dudes. Makes all of them S&P, only power armored dudes and HQs. Or a rapid insartion force ala BAs. GK use those when they need numbers over resiliance[say your up agains zombis, better to have 2 SB per one Storm Raven slot, then someone who is bulkier], Lets say 2 SR , only power armored dudes and techmarines that give some funky stuff on the turn they land[breacher charges, or re-rolls on the turn they arrive or split fire for units that have techmarines inside]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3939566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 So where's our Master of the Fleet? Master of the Ordinance? Master of Scouts? That's why I dislike a Brotherhood being called 'of the Armoury'. They're not. They are Mordraks Brotherhood. Or Grey Knight Grand Master Stevedave's Brotherhood. Well, remember that even in a normal Chapter, the Company Captains may have those ranks, but they're 90% ceremonial. With the Grey Knights, it's more like 99% ceremonial, as the Brother-Captains don't do any of that (they're constantly deployed) and the Grand Masters only do it for ritual purposes (ie meeting with the many allies of the Chapter, human or otherwise). The Grey Knights fleet would almost never deploy as one, the 8th Brotherhood's Grand Master might be the Master of Recruits but it's mainly injured Veterans or his Brotherhood Champion that would be doing their training and assessment etc. Wouldn't it be nice to have a formation that makes bad units actualy useful. Let say one that requires buffs power armored dudes. Makes all of them S&P, only power armored dudes and HQs. Or a rapid insartion force ala BAs. GK use those when they need numbers over resiliance[say your up agains zombis, better to have 2 SB per one Storm Raven slot, then someone who is bulkier], Lets say 2 SR , only power armored dudes and techmarines that give some funky stuff on the turn they land[breacher charges, or re-rolls on the turn they arrive or split fire for units that have techmarines inside]. Doesn't sound like much of a buff man. I'd prefer a formaton with Tech-Marines and Dreadnoughts, making them better together would be a lot stronger. Ravens are solid, don't think they need much of a buff. I don't know what would help Strikes, even with formation buffs Purifiers and Interceptors are just better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3939943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoDoc Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think the most likely candidate for a Suppliment is; Grey Knights: Vengeance of Mortain With the return of Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. With more than just a single Squad entry (looking at you Legion of the Damned!). This is the supplement I'd like most. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3940954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 So, anyone have any alternate ideas for a Supplement? What about a Vengeance of Mortain Supplement, as mentioned above? How would you do it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3940984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 You're right RD, they are squads, not numbers in a squad, but the "roughly" still doesn't mean unlimited numbers in a brotherhood. Regarding the Vengeance of Mortain supplement, how many Grey Knights were with Mordrak at the time? A whole supplement would imply they are very numerous as opposed to the single squad we could field last codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3941134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm assuming his entire Bortherhood. When the fortress world of Mortain was destroyed <snip> Grand Master Mordrak was the only Grey Knight to survive Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3941154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm so annoyed how they removed mordrak and thawn...almost all my lists included both! But rule wise, I can't imagine anything that would work. Maybe stealth or shrouded? But then you'll get people claiming that's too good... So maybe stealth or shrouded on turn 1? To represent them solidifying? As for actual units, I haven't a clue! Other than terminators :-P Maybe the implications of a grey knights necromancer is just too.... Chaos to really work? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302758-grey-knight-supplement/#findComment-3941217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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