New Legion, Iron Hands Tank Army 3000pts.

[gmaleron]

Hello once again everyone, just recently I was able to convince my twin brother to get into Horus Heresy however in order to do so he only wanted to play Imperial Fists. With that in mind I scrapped my original Imperial Fists idea and have decided to run Iron Hands and a tank themed list. the idea behind this army is lots of heavy armor to satisfy the tread head in me and have a few squads of infantry to support them. First time attempting this list so please let me know what you think, thanks for posting!

 

HQ:

 

-Iron Father Autek Mor

 

-Spearhead Centurion Castrmen North

 

ELITES:

 

-x3 Castellax Battle-Automata

*w/ Mauler Bolt Cannons, Bolters, Enhanced Target Array

 

-x3 Castellax Battle-Automata

*w/ Mauler Bolt Cannons, Bolters, Enhanced Target Array

 

-x15 Medusa Immortals "Autek Mor Here"

*w/ x15 Volkite Chargers

-Spartan Assault Tank

*w/ Armored Ceramite, Flare Shields

 

TROOPS:

 

-x10 Tactical Marines

*w/ x1 Melta Bombs

-Landraider Phobos

*w/ Armored Ceramite

 

-x10 Tactical Marines

*w/ x1 Melta Bombs

-Landraider Phobos

*w/ Armored Ceramite

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

-Sicaran Battle Tank

*w/ Heavy Bolters

 

-Sicaran Battle Tank

*w/ Heavy Bolters

 

-Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer "Orth Here"

*w/ Heavy Bolters

 

TOTAL ARMY: 3000pts.

[MindOfMetal]

Don't know enough about tank lists to make too many comments, but a little confused about the Castellax.  Why, when everything else is mechanised take units of monstrous creatures that footslog?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Don't know enough about tank lists to make too many comments, but a little confused about the Castellax.  Why, when everything else is mechanised take units of monstrous creatures that footslog?

Because then they have nothing which can adequately counter them. Gameplay wise, they're hard as nails, and without dedicated AT/AMC to take down (something that the Legiones seriously struggles with), working as DISTRACTION CARNIFEX is awesome.

 

I'm not properly sold on Mor - I find him far too cost ineffecient. Being able to make use of the Castellax despite the theme is okay, but with all of those points invested in combat but still not exactly being that adequate at it (4 I4 Attacks on the charge, with a single S8 AP2 attack?) and despite his stats, he's not very effective at defending thanks to SnP meaning no Overwatch either... At the cost of half a Primarch, IMHO, I'd rather save the points on him, and pick up Ferrus Manus, and take Head of the Gorgon which does exactly the same thing as Armoured Spearhead (with the exception of Tank Shock penalty).

 

I'm not sure where you'd get the points from though.

 

Dropping Mor, 2x Castellax and the Targeting Arrays (sorry, you don't have the shooting to make it worthwhile, IMHO, just get as close as possible and eat face) saves you 485, giving you Ferrus with all the buffs he brings (FNP 6+, IWND on all of your vehicle models which is taken as well as Blessed Autosimulacra), and 4x Plasma shots a turn to help deal damage, or 2x Haywire Blasts to take on enemy vehicles. Unless fighting against other Primarchs, you should really be taking "Death of Ferrus Manus" version as that saves you another 40pts - giving you 70 additional points to spend. 

 

At 3K points, you seem very troops light; Immortals don't have Implacable Advance, and with only 2 Scoring units in the list (admittedly, Land Raider inhabiting Scoring troops) you are woefully undermanned at this level, I think. I've tried to run it, but I just find myself a lttle on edge with regards to an opponent with a lot of AT who focusses on getting to those Tactical Marines inside rather than trying to kill the major threats in the list - especially fast movers, and meta's involved with 40K are very strong against these kind of "deathstar" lists.

[NonExistentOne]

Just wondering: Is there a reason you're passing on Super heavy tanks, especially at 3k? Until there is a FAQ from FW stating otherwise, Castrmen Orth in a LoW tank is a beat train without brakes.

 

Not sold on Heavy Bolter sponsons on the Sicarans. Personally I would rather have the Lascannons or spend the 20pts on Armored Ceramite.

[Slips]

I would spend 20 points on any vehicle that can take it non-negociably before any other upgrades because :cuss melta 1shotting your uber vehicles.

[SillyDreadnought]

I'd honestly drop the Immortals and take more scoring troops in tanks. Hell, I'd even drop the Land Raider Phobos and take the Proteus instead, saving you 50 points per tank as you don't need the Assault Ramp on Tactical Marines. The Proteus still gives you the same anti-tank firepower as a Phobos.

[Emperors Teeth]

SillyDreadnought has a good point about the Land Raiders types. Plus, you are presumably using the 'Head of The Gorgon' Rite of War since your Warlord Autek Mor, has the Master of the Legion special rule and you've put Tacticals in Land Raiders...

Switch both of those to Proteus', but equip one with an Exploratory Augury Web for benefits to your Reserve rolls which you'll be using to Outflank Sicarans* . Your could use the spare 50 points to improve the weapons/defences on the Sicarans.

I do disagree though about ditching the Immortals. Yes, they would probably be better replaced with something more smashy, but they're great models and bring a lot of character to the army.

*Incidentally, the Gorgon Rite of War works really well with the less effective Predators, as you can get a whole trio of tanks onto the board at a time with a single Reserve roll. I'm planning on doing this with Magna Melta equipped Predators, myself .

[coloroutofspace]

I'd honestly drop the Immortals and take more scoring troops in tanks. Hell, I'd even drop the Land Raider Phobos and take the Proteus instead, saving you 50 points per tank as you don't need the Assault Ramp on Tactical Marines. The Proteus still gives you the same anti-tank firepower as a Phobos.

Or make the Tacticals into Despoilers?

[Kossaka]

Despoilers would be mean, and if your taking Phobos might as well make the most of it.  But saving 100 points  opens up alot of customization options. I dig the spartan in your list, driving forward with the Land raiders in support. so much AV running forward with castellax in the back. I don't know if Immortals are the best use of the spartan though. while the preferred enemy Volkites would be mean, they just aren't a hammer unit. I would look into Gorgon Terminators instead with Mor accompanying them, might be a better application of the spartan's assault ramp and they are a little tougher than Immortals. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Gorgons are "cheap" defensive objective holding terminators. Implacable advance with T5* 2+/5++ and FNP 5++ and Graviton Guns. If you're going offensive, IMHO, you'll get more bang for buck for offensive units as taking standard Terminators - you're not limited to Unwieldly - AP3 is expensive (+12.5pts more than a power sword on a Terminator Squad), and no Plasma Blaster means that they can't even the score prior to melee.

 

Gorgons are defensive anchors, or maybe midfielders, rather than outright blitzers. 

[Kossaka]

Yeah, Just looked them over, much better when used defensively. I like the terminators, much better in assault now that I compare the 2, But the Gorgons have FNP without including a 100+pt Medicae. They could serve as something that ties up the biggest unit that they have, the spartan can insure that they get there and hold them up for as long as possible. Autek can handle a lot of things especially when you upgrade him to a 2+3++.  at 3000 Pts in my locale, I would have to consider a Primarch stopper unit or something to tie them up unless I brought one myself. I'd just drop Autek and take Ferrus. he meshes well with your list with the IWND given to all vehicles, and you still get your BA roll for them as well. Autek is cool but he just doesn't have a lot going for him. 

[SillyDreadnought]

Gorgons are an excellent replacement for Immortals in a tank based list. Immortals are really more geared to infantry heavy lists, IMO, either as your primary objective sweeper ( not claimer, key thing here ) or 'tank' unit to absorb firepower while you move more killy units into position. Gorgons compare favourably to Legion Terminators in my experience as well, it really becomes a toss up between built-in FNP5+, or paying the Primus Medicae tax for equivalent durability. The loss of the Plasma Blaster isn't really something I've honestly noticed in games, I've always taken Reapers or Heavy Flamers, they help define the unit's role in my armies more clearly, but that's just me.

 

 

As for Despoiler Tacticals, you don't get a whole lot for the points cost when you buy them the Land Raider Phobos. Better, IMO, to drop the Phobos, take the Proteus and use the Tacticals as mobile scoring units.

 

But your mileage may vary, of course. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Gorgons are an excellent replacement for Immortals in a tank based list. Immortals are really more geared to infantry heavy lists, IMO, either as your primary objective sweeper ( not claimer, key thing here ) or 'tank' unit to absorb firepower while you move more killy units into position. Gorgons compare favourably to Legion Terminators in my experience as well, it really becomes a toss up between built-in FNP5+, or paying the Primus Medicae tax for equivalent durability. The loss of the Plasma Blaster isn't really something I've honestly noticed in games, I've always taken Reapers or Heavy Flamers, they help define the unit's role in my armies more clearly, but that's just me.

A Heavy Flamer is near irrelevant in a 30k list as ignores cover doesn't affect 3+ save models, as is the reaper due to the lack of light vehicles. The Blaster puts up to 2 AP2 wounds on a unit you're wanting to get into an assault just before the assault happens. If I was taking a Primus Medicae, then yes! Gorgon Terminators compare favourably. If I'm not, then it's a "waste" of points. Having said that, I don't like using Terminators to counter Terminators, because of the variable nature of the game, relying on Terminators with AP2 to take on other 2+ saves risks them having better rules - Rage, Talent for Murder, Merciless Fighters, Phoenix Power Spears, etc.

 

If you're using your Terminators to take on Terminators, then Gorgonators balance the loss of Plasma (can still take combiplas) with FNP, but that's like trying to fight Rock in Rock Paper Scissors with another Rock; I'd much rather take ranged - the obvious answer to those Terminators being a Typhon.

[Kossaka]

The Plasma Blaster is useless once they get into CC, and with all power axes you will come out on top if the other terminators mix axes, mauls and swords to take on a variety of targets. The FnP without the HQ tax is awesome and whenever I face gorgons they take an ungodly amount of firepower to kill, and that blind test can wreck some serious havoc if its failed.  In the tank heavy list that Gmaleron posted, the Gorgons would do better than Immortals in the spartan. AND they have really cool models that fit with the Iron Hands theme without a ton of converting. 

 

Why does everyone forget that the Gorgons can take Lightning Claws?

 

 

I'd be interested if someone can do a 10 man terminator squad and a tooled out Praetor V.s 10 Gorgons and Autek and see who comes out on top. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Yes, yes, and yes. All true, but what you're trying to achieve is the ability to take on units in close combat. oThey're less flexible for their cost, and that Initiative 3 is a major killer on 3+ save killing as well (that might be why people "forget" to take Lightning Claws). 

 

Blind Test? Not really. There's a 50% chance once per phase (usually taking at most 1/turn)if it passes a save, meaning 4-5 per game BEST case scenario you force a test; so that's 4-5 hits from a blind weapon. Which then doesn't take place until the end of the phase (and the Gorgons hit themselves as well - they are not "the attacking unit", and despite the reroll, are still I3); so that test then happens - I4 at minimum usually; which means only 1-2 save is failed in best case scenario. BEST CASE.

 

And then, to cap things off, that 6" range means that you're often going to risk not being in range - and with at least one of the turns inside the Spartan, that's cutting down number of potential causes of the Blind, and the short range limits it even further.

 

Of course that Plasma is useless in melee. THAT'S WHY YOU USE IT IN THE SHOOTING PHASE. That means a potential -2 opponents, because AP2 shooting wounding on 2+'s are ace. That's worth the 15pts.

 

No doubt that FNP without the tax is awesome. But you don't need the FNP. It's a useful (very) side rule, but not really what you need from a CC unit jumping out of a Spartan. That resilience is of no use if no shots are incoming to them, and it's just points bloat.

 

Kossaka, Autek Mor and 10 Gorgons comes in at 600pts, without upgrades.

 

Cataphractii Terminator Praetor with Paragon Blade, 10 generic Catapgractii Legion Terminators with 2 Plasma Blasters, 8 Combi-Plasma and 10 Power Fists comes in at 586pts. Cataphractii win out, and that's without bonuses for charging, such as Rage for World Eaters, or being Salamanders which get 3++ and Eternal Warrior, Dark Chanelling for Word Bearers, Counter Attack and Praetor with Power Dagger granting +1 Attack for Alpha Legion, or T5 2+/3++, or Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy for the Raven Guard (who also have MC'd Rending Claws at Initiatve).

[Kossaka]

I'm not arguing with the fact that the Gorgons are inferior to regular terminators in assault purposes, and that Gorgons are outshined by other terminator units. But that's not what they are for, and I don't think that they are overcosted. And I said that Autek loses for the most part against other characters.

 

For the other legion specific terminators. I'd be intersted if anyone runs a full Ravens Talons terminator unit. It's a full 100pt upgrade for MC and Rending. The IF T5 2+3++ only comes from their RoW that comes with a whole lot of drawbacks. And it's 100-150pts for the squad. Alpha Legion have some of the strongest rules out there with the flexiblity available to them. Word Bearers and World Eaters are some of the best assault based armies. A Salamander Praetor has a chance of taking down Sigismund, the best non primarch fighter in all of the legions. And whooo boy if you thought some units are expensive, try TH/SS Firedrakes, sure the 2+3++ 2W makes you almost unstoppable but they are crazy expensive. Almost untakably high short of 3k+.

 

Iron Hands aren't ment for assault based lists because of their legion special rules don't support assault very well. They are ment for mech and for shooty armies where you can leavrage the most out of the -1str from shooting or the mech where you can potentially have IWND and hull point back on a 6. In this list IMHO Gorgons would be thematic, can preform decently well and almost guaranteed to be better than Immortals in most situations. Yes the blind is almost pointless, but again very thematic. But you would almost certainly be better off taking something else to put inside of the Spartan. Or just take 2 more tactical squads with LR Proteuses(?).

 

The 4 Str7AP2 plasma blaster shots are good but you don't run a very high percentage chance of killing more than 1 terminator. Less if your firing overwatch.

[jeremy1391]

Soooo many krak missiles...

[SillyDreadnought]

 

Gorgons are an excellent replacement for Immortals in a tank based list. Immortals are really more geared to infantry heavy lists, IMO, either as your primary objective sweeper ( not claimer, key thing here ) or 'tank' unit to absorb firepower while you move more killy units into position. Gorgons compare favourably to Legion Terminators in my experience as well, it really becomes a toss up between built-in FNP5+, or paying the Primus Medicae tax for equivalent durability. The loss of the Plasma Blaster isn't really something I've honestly noticed in games, I've always taken Reapers or Heavy Flamers, they help define the unit's role in my armies more clearly, but that's just me.

A Heavy Flamer is near irrelevant in a 30k list as ignores cover doesn't affect 3+ save models, as is the reaper due to the lack of light vehicles. The Blaster puts up to 2 AP2 wounds on a unit you're wanting to get into an assault just before the assault happens. If I was taking a Primus Medicae, then yes! Gorgon Terminators compare favourably. If I'm not, then it's a "waste" of points. Having said that, I don't like using Terminators to counter Terminators, because of the variable nature of the game, relying on Terminators with AP2 to take on other 2+ saves risks them having better rules - Rage, Talent for Murder, Merciless Fighters, Phoenix Power Spears, etc.

 

If you're using your Terminators to take on Terminators, then Gorgonators balance the loss of Plasma (can still take combiplas) with FNP, but that's like trying to fight Rock in Rock Paper Scissors with another Rock; I'd much rather take ranged - the obvious answer to those Terminators being a Typhon.

 

Heavy Flamer isn't for the ignores cover, it's for dumping additional wounds on the target unit prior to assault alongside combi-flamers. And the Reaper does the same job, only at a greater distance. But why bother trying to discuss anything with you, you clearly have your mind made up to the point where trying to talk about any unit in 30k is a pointless endeavour as you weigh in to annihilate all in favour of your min/max attitude. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Get in the bin with that attitude. Seriously. Insinuating that my attitude is bad because it supports getting the most out of your units? I'm not being made out to be the bad guy because people cannot optimize.

 

I'm not saying that Mor plus Gorgonators are bad. Or overcosted. I'm saying that in a list where they are not taking shots (they have an AV14-15 wall between them and the outside) that cheap FNP with T5* is simply wasted points. Considering that is what their points increase is for.

 

Dumping additional wounds prior to assault simply sounds a lot like risking not making the charge distance.

 

And conversely to the point of me min maxing, what is the point in posting lists if all people are going to say 'but i don't care about what people say about list building, i play what i want to play'

 

At that point, it becomes a Showcase of models without the pretty models To look at. I'm not a very good painter. I don't showcase my models. What I AM good at however is building lists, and trying to eek out the numbers where i can.

 

Thanks, sorry for trying to actually give decent information, rather than to use the competitive term 'catering for scrubs'.

 

Yes, implied insults aren't very nice, don't bother in future. Thanks.