Vs Eldar, regarding Gem of Phoenix

[EnterRehab]

My NDK got into a tiff with some Eldar Farseer.  He crushed the Farseers' face very hard.

 

Fight went like this:

 

Warlocks assault. Farseer assaults.

NDK issues challenge to Farseer.

 

Ruling on this one:

If the warlocks are I5, they'd technically go before the NDK, but because the NDK is in a challenge, they can't roll to hit against him.  The only way they'd be able to wound him is if there were tertiary models for them to kill and the wounds would seep over, right?

 

Question on this situation:

NDK has 3/4 wounds on him.  Farseer I5 goes first, fails to hit.  NDK drops 4 hits, 2 wounds.  Farseer fails TWO invuln saves, but dies after 1 because STR is double toughness. 

 

1) Does the gem of phoenix activate NOW, revive him (maybe), and he take the second wound?

 

or

 

2) Does the gem activate after wounds have been allocated, in which a warlock is forced to take the 4++?

 

We ruled it as this, and this is what happened:

Farseer dies, the wound is allocated on the warlock (rolled a 6.. no death). Gem is activated, successfully returns and my NDK takes 1 str4AP5 hit, his warlock takes 1 str4AP5 hit.  His warlock saves.. and my NDK fails.

 

My NDK needed a 2+ (+FNP) and failed BOTH.  My warlord died in such a pitiful way.  It was so sad to see him go like that.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Gem activates after the Farseer is removed as a casualty. The Gem needs to inflict a single unsaved wound for the Farseer to rez. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I'm also fairly sure that if you assault, or are assaulted by a lone model,and call a challenge, all attacks can still hit the lone model. Issuing a challenge Just means the lone model can allocate his attacks directly at the character.

[EnterRehab]

I'm also fairly sure that if you assault, or are assaulted by a lone model,and call a challenge, all attacks can still hit the lone model. Issuing a challenge Just means the lone model can allocate his attacks directly at the character.

 

That's what i thought, too.. But the rule reads that models outside of the challenge can't make rolls to hit vs models in challenges- but the models in challenge can take wounds from external to their own challenge.

 

 

The Gem activates after the Farseer is removed as a casualty. The Gem needs to inflict a single unsaved wound for the Farseer to rez. 

 

Rule directly reads that it's activated before being removed as a casualty.  Additionally, is the model removed as a casualty AFTER all wounds are allocated, or after it has exceeded its wound pool?

[Lucien Eilam]

If the warlocks are I5, they'd technically go before the NDK, but because the NDK is in a challenge, they can't roll to hit against him.  The only way they'd be able to wound him is if there were tertiary models for them to kill and the wounds would seep over, right?

No. They have to allocate to any other models first, but once they're dead the challenger is fair game. In 7th, Challenges change priority, but they never remove anyone from the fight.

 

NDK has 3/4 wounds on him.  Farseer I5 goes first, fails to hit.  NDK drops 4 hits, 2 wounds.  Farseer fails TWO invuln saves, but dies after 1 because STR is double toughness. 

 

1) Does the gem of phoenix activate NOW, revive him (maybe), and he take the second wound?

 

or

 

2) Does the gem activate after wounds have been allocated, in which a warlock is forced to take the 4++?

The former. The Phoenix Gem activates before you remove the model as a casualty, and one wound is enough to do that. The Gem has to inflict a wound on something to bring him back. He stays on the table until it's resolved. If he's still on the table, he's the only valid target for the second wound.

 

Note that if he didn't revive, the second wound is allocated to the rest of the unit, but you wouldn't roll to save against it twice like you describe above. Since they have the same saving throw, rolling once is enough. If they had different saving throws, you would need to resolve the wounds one by one.

 

But the rule reads that models outside of the challenge can't make rolls to hit vs models in challenges

 

You're going to have quote that rule. It doesn't seem to be in my rulebook.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah Lucien is correct. While in the challenge, the characters can't be punched by anyone else. However, if one of them slays the other, and you then go to another Initiative step, enemy models in range (ie B2B or within 2" of a B2B model) can now attack the victor of the challenge. 

[Lucien Eilam]

That's not what I said.

That was how it worked in 6th edition. In 7th, everyone gets to fight.

This is the only rule about what other models can do while a challenge takes place:

Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

If the challenger is the only opposing model, your entire unit can absolutely hit him.

[EnterRehab]

Yeah Lucien is correct. While in the challenge, the characters can't be punched by anyone else. However, if one of them slays the other, and you then go to another Initiative step, enemy models in range (ie B2B or within 2" of a B2B model) can now attack the victor of the challenge. 

 

Don't have my book on me while i'm at work.  It specifically says something on the lines of "While a model is in a challenge, to-hit rolls can not be taken ... [more words]" I'll directly cite when I get home.

[Lucien Eilam]

Don't have my book on me while i'm at work.  It specifically says something on the lines of "While a model is in a challenge, to-hit rolls can not be taken ... [more words]" I'll directly cite when I get home.

What's on the cover of your rulebook? 6th edition was worded like that.

[EnterRehab]

 

Don't have my book on me while i'm at work.  It specifically says something on the lines of "While a model is in a challenge, to-hit rolls can not be taken ... [more words]" I'll directly cite when I get home.

What's on the cover of your rulebook? 6th edition was worded like that.

 

 

Oh it's definitely the 7th edition.  I've only been playing since 7th.  It's on the second page (when referencing the challenge), I think it's toward the top of the page.

[ShinyRhino]

 

 

Don't have my book on me while i'm at work.  It specifically says something on the lines of "While a model is in a challenge, to-hit rolls can not be taken ... [more words]" I'll directly cite when I get home.

What's on the cover of your rulebook? 6th edition was worded like that.

 

 

Oh it's definitely the 7th edition.  I've only been playing since 7th.  It's on the second page (when referencing the challenge), I think it's toward the top of the page.

 

 

Lucien is right. That rule no longer exists. The rules for challenges now define what the challenger and challenge must do (use the WS of the opposing fighter, allocate all wounds to that fighter), and makes no restrictions on other models other than the Outside Forces section he quoted above.

[Captain Coolpants]

Outside Forces

 

Whilst the challenge is ONGOING, other models locked in the combat can **only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge** after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

 

 

 

 

direct copy and paste from the rulebook. I can't give an accurate page number and such because it's a digital edition on my phone.

 

But yeah, if there are no other models, then guys outside the challenge have to beat up the lonely challenger.

[Captain Coolpants]

Copy and paste from the digital eldar dex.

 

 

One use only. ***Immediately before*** the bearer of the Phoenix Gem is removed as a casualty, roll a D6. On a score of 1, nothing happens – remove the model as a casualty. On a score of 2-6, centre the large blast marker over the model. Each unit (friend or foe) suffers a number of Strength 4 AP5 hits equal to the number of models from their unit that are at least partially under the template. If at least one unsaved Wound is caused, the bearer is not removed as a casualty, but remains in play with a single Wound remaining. If no unsaved Wounds are caused, remove the model as a casualty

[jeffersonian000]

Outside Forces

 

Whilst the challenge is ONGOING, other models locked in the combat can **only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge** after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

 

 

 

 

direct copy and paste from the rulebook. I can't give an accurate page number and such because it's a digital edition on my phone.

 

But yeah, if there are no other models, then guys outside the challenge have to beat up the lonely challenger.

If that's direct quite from the BRB, there is an odd loophole: since the NDK has no other models to lose, the rest of the enemy models in the Challenger's unit are out of luck. I underlined and bolded the relevent passenge in your post. It appears that in order for the NDK to take hits from the Challenger's unit, the Challenger has to die before the NDK.

 

SJ

[Lucien Eilam]

Nope. "if any". If there weren't any to begin with, the rule never applies.

[EnterRehab]

 

Outside Forces

 

Whilst the challenge is ONGOING, other models locked in the combat can **only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge** after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

 

 

 

 

direct copy and paste from the rulebook. I can't give an accurate page number and such because it's a digital edition on my phone.

 

But yeah, if there are no other models, then guys outside the challenge have to beat up the lonely challenger.

If that's direct quite from the BRB, there is an odd loophole: since the NDK has no other models to lose, the rest of the enemy models in the Challenger's unit are out of luck. I underlined and bolded the relevent passenge in your post. It appears that in order for the NDK to take hits from the Challenger's unit, the Challenger has to die before the NDK.

 

SJ

 

 

Thats how I had interpreted it as well.  It says you can dish the wounds out but it doesn't say anything about hitting them.  Doesn't make it so much of a challenge if everyone is still involved anyway!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Pro-tip; multi-charge with DK's ;) . Challenge the Farseer with one, murder the unit with the other. 

[Captain Coolpants]

Speaking of multi charging!

 

Dreadknights have big bases.. So if I could base with 2 separate enemy units on the charge, is it allowed as it's only 1 model?

[Lucien Eilam]

Thats how I had interpreted it as well.  It says you can dish the wounds out but it doesn't say anything about hitting them.  Doesn't make it so much of a challenge if everyone is still involved anyway!

 

Right, it doesn't say anything about rolling to hit, so you continue to use the standard rules. Which is roll to hit against the majority Weapon Skill of the engaged enemy models. Nothing in the Challenge section changes rolling to hit for outside forces. so it works as normal.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Speaking of multi charging! 

 

Dreadknights have big bases.. So if I could base with 2 separate enemy units on the charge, is it allowed as it's only 1 model? 

 

Well Defenders React means they'll be in BTB anyway, so yes. It's why MC's and things like Terminators have a distinct advantage in melee, as they can hit many more models than normal infantry based units. The drawback is, you'll be punched by almost everyone. 

Right, it doesn't say anything about rolling to hit, so you continue to use the standard rules. Which is roll to hit against the majority Weapon Skill of the engaged enemy models. Nothing in the Challenge section changes rolling to hit for outside forces. so it works as normal.

 

That's retarded. If true, what is the point of challenging? You get punched just the same. 

[Lucien Eilam]

That's retarded. If true, what is the point of challenging? You get punched just the same.

Retarded would be your entire squad standing around with nothing to do just because one guy challenged, disabling an entire unit with one model. It's 40k, honour only goes so far.

 

If you don't want to get punched, you'd better bring the boys.

[boreas]

RD: challenging allows you to either make sure you hit that Klaw Nobz (or whoever) or make him duck out of the fight... But yeah, don't send in your NDK to help out those acolytes because he could end up soaking wounds made on T3!

[jeffersonian000]

 

That's retarded. If true, what is the point of challenging? You get punched just the same.

Retarded would be your entire squad standing around with nothing to do just because one guy challenged, disabling an entire unit with one model. It's 40k, honour only goes so far.

 

If you don't want to get punched, you'd better bring the boys.

This is why I think the interpretation is off. In a Challenge, one model is figuratively drawing a line in the sand and waiting for an opponent to step forward for single combat, while everyone else either continues fighting each other, or stands back and cheers on their champion versus the lone enemy in an honor duel. That's his it reads to me, anyway.

 

The clause stating that wounds transfer after the rest of the unit (if any) is gone implies that you would need to actually lose all but the challenger in order to transfer wounds to the challenger, yet if there are no additional models, there is no route the transferring wounds. This would mean that single model Challengers could in fact tarpit entire units for however long it takes the two challengers to off one or the other. Only after one dies will the wounds transfer to the cheerleaders, or the cheerleaders will be able to attack the lone champion.

 

SJ

[Lucien Eilam]

This is why I think the interpretation is off. In a Challenge, one model is figuratively drawing a line in the sand and waiting for an opponent to step forward for single combat, while everyone else either continues fighting each other, or stands back and cheers on their champion versus the lone enemy in an honor duel. That's his it reads to me, anyway.

None of that has anything to do with what the rules actually say.

 

The clause stating that wounds transfer after the rest of the unit (if any) is gone implies that you would need to actually lose all but the challenger in order to transfer wounds to the challenger, yet if there are no additional models, there is no route the transferring wounds.

No it doesn't. "if any". It means that IF there are ANY, then you have to do that. If there aren't, there's no way to apply that rule, so you carry on as normal.

 

This would mean that single model Challengers could in fact tarpit entire units for however long it takes the two challengers to off one or the other. Only after one dies will the wounds transfer to the cheerleaders, or the cheerleaders will be able to attack the lone champion.

You seriously think it would be less stupid that you can hit the challenger, but only if there's somebody else to hit first? That would be beyond stupid, and well into :cussing moronic.

 

What do you think the intention of the wording change from 6th edition was?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What Jeff and I are pointing out is if that's actually how 7th challenges work, there is no point to challenging. It's all negatives, especially for single models charging units.