Vs Eldar, regarding Gem of Phoenix

[Grand Master Caloth]

Speaking of multi charging!

 

Dreadknights have big bases.. So if I could base with 2 separate enemy units on the charge, is it allowed as it's only 1 model?

Not exactly. When charging, the first model, in this instance the only model, must move directly at the closest enemy model. The chances of you basing two units in that manner are nigh impossible.

 

Also, the rule says WOUNDS can't be allocated until all models from one side are dead, not attacks.

[Grand Master Caloth]

What Jeff and I are pointing out is if that's actually how 7th challenges work, there is no point to challenging. It's all negatives, especially for single models charging units.

And also not exactly, as you force enemy characters to either fight in single combat, hopefully to die before they hurt your squad in cases like power fists and klaws, or not attack at all.

[Captain Coolpants]

I think this whole challenge debate is kinda pointless. It's there is clear wording, if there are no other models, everything can punch the guys in the challenge... basically :-P

 

Challenges are still very worth while for single models, I could run my dreadknight at a squad with a character with a force weapon or power fist.

 

By doing this, I either falcon punch it into the dirt, or the opponent declines, and then the only thing that can hurt me.... Well... Isn't allowed to hurt me haha

 

This is usually useless against orks though, they usually except the challenge with a mek and leave the power claw nob free to beat on you.

[Marshal Mattias]

Yeah, having multiple characters is a good way to protect a critical model from being challenged.

 

Challenging a unit (even with a lone model) can be useful though. My BT character gains re-rolls to hit in a challenge, meaning he is even more likely than usual to win with extra wounds, which still carry over into the enemy squad. I also cut their leadership by taking out the charachter, making them more likely to fall back. Sure, maybe my character now gets battered by a whole squad, but that would have happened anyway. This way, instead of only mulching mooks and leaving behind the filthy witch-librarian to force-weapon me, I forced the librarian into a standoff where I have a good chance of killing him, or he has to hide from me and lose his attacks. Its very grimdark - face your doom and try to take out the enemy warlord as you go!

[lt051]

The whole point for a single model to challenge is to quickly kill the hidden fist/claw. It honestly makes more sense than the drawn out mono v mono rules of 6th. The current rules fix the issue of killing 20 orks to get the 1 claw, without allowing single models to "hide" by challenging and protecting themselves from the rest of a squad, or keep the scariest guy from fighting.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, but so long as you have two characters, you can sacrifice the squad sarge to your super-killy hero, leaving their hero able to keep fighting anyway. 

[Grand Master Caloth]

Say that again, Darius?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Sorry, lemme re-phrase. I think I worded that wrong lol. 

 

You charge in with your Terminators+Grand Master. They have a Sergeant with a bolter, and a Captain with Burning Blade relic sword. You challenge, opponent accepts with Sarge, Captain continues to slice up your Terminators just fine. 

 

My point being, an opponent can always just sacrifice their least important character to a challenge, leaving the one you wanted to fight free  to attack. 

[Marshal Mattias]

True, that's a tactical decision that you have to be prepared for. Maybe you declare with your own sergeant, or let you opponent decide to declare? Or you know, don't throw your termies at a burning-blade warlord :P

The point isn't that 'challenging is always awesome' but more that 'challenging can be very useful in many situations. There have been many times where I was better-off not engaging in the challenge (even with CT bonuses) but I feel fluff is important too.

[the jeske]

I have question. Aren't melee attacks technicly rolled the same as shoting aka one at a time. So when locked in a  challange you would roll one A hi/wound/save-inv/check if dead etc. Or is it that we roll them all at the same time [like unit vs unit/single model does], because this way if someone gets up after gettttting killed by the first attack, he could still die from 2ed or 3ed?

 

And am asking about the actual rolls, I know that for faster game play people generaly roll everything at the same time.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Not so much the attacks, but the saves, yes, unless you have no characters, then you just roll all the saves and remove however many killed.

[Brom MKIV]

I have question. Aren't melee attacks technicly rolled the same as shoting aka one at a time. So when locked in a  challange you would roll one A hi/wound/save-inv/check if dead etc. Or is it that we roll them all at the same time [like unit vs unit/single model does], because this way if someone gets up after gettttting killed by the first attack, he could still die from 2ed or 3ed?

 

And am asking about the actual rolls, I know that for faster game play people generaly roll everything at the same time.

 

When it potentially matters yes the saves are rolled individually (attacks possibly in rare instances with special rules). Reason is things like instant death, rending etc.

 

On challenges I feel there is quite a bit of strategy involved in 7th, but only if you design your ICs/units with challenges in mind. As Marshal Mattias stated.  

 

You charge in with your Terminators+Grand Master. They have a Sergeant with a bolter, and a Captain with Burning Blade relic sword. You challenge, opponent accepts with Sarge, Captain continues to slice up your Terminators just fine. 

 

 

My point being, an opponent can always just sacrifice their least important character to a challenge, leaving the one you wanted to fight free  to attack.

 

 

This isn't always true, or rather the reverse is equally true. If both sides have multiple characters involved its a stand off and depends on lots of outside factors like model positioning.

 

For example in the scenario above the GK are the active player so choose to issue first. If not it is passed to the non active player. In this instance the choice will be effected by if the GM was able to and chose to assault into BtB with the captain, or at least is capable of being very close to. Either way its a hard choice (due mostly to an ill advised assault) but lets assume necessary. 

 

If in BtB with the captain (or able to orchestrate via pile in or even next in line) and assuming the rest is impotent meq unit X I would personally choose not to challenge. Now you have final say. They don't challenge your GM soaks the burning blade which hes fully capable of and the termies are free to butcher meq.

If he does challenge you match their challenger against your best guy for the job (serg vs serg or captain vs GM) with the purpose being to mitigate casualties while inflicting maximum yourself. Then if subsequent rounds happen you can gang up. 

 

On the flip side if you feel your termies are up to the job (lets say sanctuary is active) then theres really no downside to issuing with the GM other than the captain gets to hit on 3s. In return the GM is free to butcher meq too after stomping the life out of a serg on the way in.. 

 

 

Bottom line though is that the higher up the food chain you are the better challenges are. Apex predators like draigo being case in point. If at the bottom you want no characters ideally because its a waste (think even of GKT with justicar vs combat squaded without any characters.. the latter is preferable unless acting as a combat ICs bodyguard). Anywhere in the middle and multiple characters = options. 

[Lucien Eilam]

What Jeff and I are pointing out is if that's actually how 7th challenges work, there is no point to challenging. It's all negatives, especially for single models charging units.

That's not true though.

 

If you have a squad with you, his squad have to kill yours before they get a swing at the character, so this rarely even comes up.

 

Even when lone charging a squad, your character will get to strike your opponent's character first, instead of being chosen by him from among the models in base contact. If the point of your charge was that you wanted that character dead, challenging is essential, not pointless.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Even when lone charging a squad, your character will get to strike your opponent's character first, instead of being chosen by him from among the models in base contact. If the point of your charge was that you wanted that character dead, challenging is essential, not pointless.

 

What if the unit charging has higher Initiative, due to terrain or stats? Would they not be able to slap around your lone DK or character first? Challenging doesn't protect from that. 

[Captain Coolpants]

 

Even when lone charging a squad, your character will get to strike your opponent's character first, instead of being chosen by him from among the models in base contact. If the point of your charge was that you wanted that character dead, challenging is essential, not pointless.

 

What if the unit charging has higher Initiative, due to terrain or stats? Would they not be able to slap around your lone DK or character first? Challenging doesn't protect from that.

true. But that's a tactical decision you have to make,

 

do I risk getting slapped to death by eldar before I can kill the character?

 

Or do I take my chances and hope I don't get shot to death.

 

I know what I'd do! :-P

[Lucien Eilam]

What if the unit charging has higher Initiative, due to terrain or stats? Would they not be able to slap around your lone DK or character first? Challenging doesn't protect from that.

 

No it doesn't, but why should it? The point of the challenge is offence, not defence. It's "I want to fight you", not "I'm too much of a screaming jessie to fight you lot".

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No it doesn't, but why should it? The point of the challenge is offence, not defence. It's "I want to fight you", not "I'm too much of a screaming jessie to fight you lot".

 

I'm talking about realistic scenarios. DK's having to go at I1 is a real problem I've actually faced before. I'm not making it up or being a wuss, it's how the game works. Apparently frag grenades are that magical. 

 

I'm not usually concerned fighting most things in melee (DK's kinda steamroll most non-melee units), but the new Wraiths for Necrons have me concerned, and there are other things like Thunderwolves, Stormhammers etc that I'd rather not have to wade through to finally get my challenge happening. I'm really annoyed at this change, 6th edition challenges worked as intended (ie cue hair metal, slow mo battle on top of outcrop with lightning bolts in the background). Not this garbage of 'oh yeah everyone can still punch you'. 

 

Eh, like I said, why bother challenging? It doesn't turn on any bonuses for us (our characters don't get any more killy) and it just exposes you to more attention when you can't fight back. 

[Lucien Eilam]

Tactically, for a Dreadknight, no it's not always going to be a great idea. Send in two at once, or a squad of Terminators if you don't want it mobbed.

 

Eh, like I said, why bother challenging? It doesn't turn on any bonuses for us (our characters don't get any more killy) and it just exposes you to more attention when you can't fight back.

 
As I said, it means the wounds the Dreadknight inflicts will go on the opposing character, and can't be tanked by the squad. If killing the character is preferable, the challenge is essential - otherwise your opponent decides where the wounds go. That is literally the entire point of challenges - fighting an opposing character because you want to kill an opposing character.

 

If you're just hiding from his shooting phase, yeah, it makes no difference.

 

How does it expose you to any more attention than not challenging?

[boreas]

RD: think of it like this: an accepted challange gives your NDK free "Precision shots". I must say: 6th ed challenges were way too good with the NDK.