Dealing with Knights and 6+ Wound Monsters

[Toasterfree]

 

if you are using terminators against a knight, storm shields are quite valuable and chainfists are also a good idea.

 

 

 

Quick question, but I thought SS did nothing against a knight???

 

I thought the way it worked was:

 

If he hits you with its D weapon, you get no saves allowed (including inv saves)

 

If it stamps you, 2-5 you get regular saves, but 6 you're just removed from play (so again, SS does nothing)

 

 

So youd actually be better off just not taking SS on your terminators, kitting them all out with TH/CF, and hoping you survive enough hits to then get some S8 attacks in. 

 

The key for me here is making sure they are WS5 by having them as CoF. That way the knight is less likely to be killing you with his D weapon hits.

 

 

Same goes for TWC, id probably just run them bare bones, except one with a TH/PF, hope the other guys can soak up some wounds and let the TH/PF hit the knight after. Again, make them WS5 to minimise losses/maximise TH/PF hits.

You get your ss save against everything but a 6. 2-5 on the melee result is just d3+1 wounds. On a 6 no saves of anykind are allowed

[Yoyo ninja]

 

 

if you are using terminators against a knight, storm shields are quite valuable and chainfists are also a good idea.

 

Quick question, but I thought SS did nothing against a knight???

 

I thought the way it worked was:

 

If he hits you with its D weapon, you get no saves allowed (including inv saves)

 

If it stamps you, 2-5 you get regular saves, but 6 you're just removed from play (so again, SS does nothing)

 

 

So youd actually be better off just not taking SS on your terminators, kitting them all out with TH/CF, and hoping you survive enough hits to then get some S8 attacks in.

 

The key for me here is making sure they are WS5 by having them as CoF. That way the knight is less likely to be killing you with his D weapon hits.

 

 

Same goes for TWC, id probably just run them bare bones, except one with a TH/PF, hope the other guys can soak up some wounds and let the TH/PF hit the knight after. Again, make them WS5 to minimise losses/maximise TH/PF hits.

You get your ss save against everything but a 6. 2-5 on the melee result is just d3+1 wounds. On a 6 no saves of anykind are allowed

That's not what the knight codex says. It clearly stats that no saves of any kind are aloud for damage caused by D weapons. Unless that was FAQed. I'll check....

 

No, sorry, your correct, the FAQ says the rules in the BRB are to be used. That says only rolls of 6 on the destroyer table ignore all saves.

[Toasterfree]

:D

[Frater Cornelius]

A 3++ only lasts so long. 2-5 do multiple wounds to each model and are resolved as S10. Too many TWC would die in that engagement. There are only a very few units I do not send TWC again and those are Imperial Knights, Wraithknights, Dreadknights and anything with a good amount of attacks and Instant Death (mainly GK units with Force), why? S10 or ID at the same Ini step as TWC. You will lose too much.

[Skallagoose]

Ok… So let me ask you guys something. To deal with a knight titan- what would be a better psyker power? Endurance or Invisibility?

 

Can stomp still effect the wolves if they are invisible? 

endurance makes each wolf eternal warrior...

 

One or the other- what do you guys think?

[skeletoro]

Immersturm, how many will die?

Perhaps one, before the power fists are striking back.

And then the knight dies. And likely the rest of the pack with him.

Which is kinda what I said

In case it needs pointing out, that's an OK trade if the pack only cost, say, 300-350 points.

[Frater Cornelius]

Stomp hits regardless of invisibility and 6 on stomp as well as 6 to wound removea from play, so EW does not matter.

 

@ skele - One dies to his regular melee, sometimes even two. Then the fist strikes at the same time as the stomp. The stomp has a decent chance to remove 1-2 more, then, if the Knight dies, the apoc blast might remove yet another. Sure, you traded 200-250 points for 370, but you also lost your melee pressure and main hammer. Point values are not everything. The tactical worth of the unit is what matters.

[Baulder]

I tell you flyers against titans, especially if the titan is kitted for melee or with template weapons. 

[DanPesci]

 

 

 

if you are using terminators against a knight, storm shields are quite valuable and chainfists are also a good idea.

 

Quick question, but I thought SS did nothing against a knight???

 

I thought the way it worked was:

 

If he hits you with its D weapon, you get no saves allowed (including inv saves)

 

If it stamps you, 2-5 you get regular saves, but 6 you're just removed from play (so again, SS does nothing)

 

 

So youd actually be better off just not taking SS on your terminators, kitting them all out with TH/CF, and hoping you survive enough hits to then get some S8 attacks in.

 

The key for me here is making sure they are WS5 by having them as CoF. That way the knight is less likely to be killing you with his D weapon hits.

 

 

Same goes for TWC, id probably just run them bare bones, except one with a TH/PF, hope the other guys can soak up some wounds and let the TH/PF hit the knight after. Again, make them WS5 to minimise losses/maximise TH/PF hits.

You get your ss save against everything but a 6. 2-5 on the melee result is just d3+1 wounds. On a 6 no saves of anykind are allowed

That's not what the knight codex says. It clearly stats that no saves of any kind are aloud for damage caused by D weapons. Unless that was FAQed. I'll check....

 

No, sorry, your correct, the FAQ says the rules in the BRB are to be used. That says only rolls of 6 on the destroyer table ignore all saves.

 

 

 

 

Ahhh ok awesome. Thats grand then, id hit a knight titan with arjacs shieldbrothers, the first game I played against one...and had only read the brb, so used SS saves.

 

The second game i played against a knight i used the knight codex rules (no saves at all).

 

But seems the first time was nearer :) Ill need to dig out that faq to give to my knight-using mate.

 

I take it if the D weapon wounds on 2-5, thats D3+1 wounds against a single model?? Or are the wounds split up amongst the unit?

[jay170788]

The D3 wounds are on a single model. If it carried over the Knights would be very brutal indeed.

[skeletoro]

Sure, but the tactical worth of a unit is approximated pretty closely by its point value.

 

You might not feel good about trading your 250 point unit for a 370 point knight, but I would wager your opponent is even less happy about the trade. And we're talking about a zero sum game here.

[Toasterfree]

Stomp hits regardless of invisibility and 6 on stomp as well as 6 to wound removea from play, so EW does not matter.

 

@ skele - One dies to his regular melee, sometimes even two. Then the fist strikes at the same time as the stomp. The stomp has a decent chance to remove 1-2 more, then, if the Knight dies, the apoc blast might remove yet another. Sure, you traded 200-250 points for 370, but you also lost your melee pressure and main hammer. Point values are not everything. The tactical worth of the unit is what matters.

you dont roll to wound on a 6 on the stomp. they are just removed from the game

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Stomp hits regardless of invisibility and 6 on stomp as well as 6 to wound removea from play, so EW does not matter.

 

@ skele - One dies to his regular melee, sometimes even two. Then the fist strikes at the same time as the stomp. The stomp has a decent chance to remove 1-2 more, then, if the Knight dies, the apoc blast might remove yet another. Sure, you traded 200-250 points for 370, but you also lost your melee pressure and main hammer. Point values are not everything. The tactical worth of the unit is what matters.

you dont roll to wound on a 6 on the stomp. they are just removed from the game

 

 

Re-read my comment. I said '6 on stomp and 6 to wound...'. I am talking about both stomp and melee attacks.

[NightHowler]

It's been my experience so far that flyers and TWC are the best answer to Imperial Knights and 6+ wound monsters.  How you equip your TWC however, will drastically alter how effective they are.

 

I take full packs of 6 and every single one has a storm shield.  Two of them are also equipped with powerfists.  It's 380 points for the unit, but an Imperial Knight's shooting doesn't do much to them and the knight usually doesn't last more than a round in close combat.  It's important to note that while only 1 out of every 6 hits kills a wolf outright, you still lose an extra one or two to the d3 wounds hits, but there's usually enough left after toppling the titan for the TWC to still be terrifying to the rest of the army.

 

The flyers are less effective against titans simply because of the shielding, but still very effective at taking wounds off of 6+ wound monsters.

[Toasterfree]

 

 

Stomp hits regardless of invisibility and 6 on stomp as well as 6 to wound removea from play, so EW does not matter.

 

@ skele - One dies to his regular melee, sometimes even two. Then the fist strikes at the same time as the stomp. The stomp has a decent chance to remove 1-2 more, then, if the Knight dies, the apoc blast might remove yet another. Sure, you traded 200-250 points for 370, but you also lost your melee pressure and main hammer. Point values are not everything. The tactical worth of the unit is what matters.

you dont roll to wound on a 6 on the stomp. they are just removed from the game

 

 

Re-read my comment. I said '6 on stomp and 6 to wound...'. I am talking about both stomp and melee attacks.

 

reading is hard before coffee

[Yoyo ninja]

 

 

 

 

if you are using terminators against a knight, storm shields are quite valuable and chainfists are also a good idea.

 

Quick question, but I thought SS did nothing against a knight???

I thought the way it worked was:

If he hits you with its D weapon, you get no saves allowed (including inv saves)

If it stamps you, 2-5 you get regular saves, but 6 you're just removed from play (so again, SS does nothing)

So youd actually be better off just not taking SS on your terminators, kitting them all out with TH/CF, and hoping you survive enough hits to then get some S8 attacks in.

The key for me here is making sure they are WS5 by having them as CoF. That way the knight is less likely to be killing you with his D weapon hits.

Same goes for TWC, id probably just run them bare bones, except one with a TH/PF, hope the other guys can soak up some wounds and let the TH/PF hit the knight after. Again, make them WS5 to minimise losses/maximise TH/PF hits.

You get your ss save against everything but a 6. 2-5 on the melee result is just d3+1 wounds. On a 6 no saves of anykind are allowed

That's not what the knight codex says. It clearly stats that no saves of any kind are aloud for damage caused by D weapons. Unless that was FAQed. I'll check....

No, sorry, your correct, the FAQ says the rules in the BRB are to be used. That says only rolls of 6 on the destroyer table ignore all saves.

 

 

 

Ahhh ok awesome. Thats grand then, id hit a knight titan with arjacs shieldbrothers, the first game I played against one...and had only read the brb, so used SS saves.

 

The second game i played against a knight i used the knight codex rules (no saves at all).

 

But seems the first time was nearer :) Ill need to dig out that faq to give to my knight-using mate.

 

I take it if the D weapon wounds on 2-5, thats D3+1 wounds against a single model?? Or are the wounds split up amongst the unit?

The erata is on the GW website, go right to the bottom and find erata. It will be there as a PDF for download.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

The method I used when I faced them with my White Scars was crossfires.

People scoffed at my multimelta armed devistators but in cover they sure stripped hull points off. Set them up one side of its approach and then had my storm eagle come in on the other side.

He can only guard one side with his shield.

(although credit for the kill actually went to the rocket launcher in a tactical squad that fired a rocket up its jacksie for the last hull point!)

[Skallagoose]

Just consider yourself lucky with Space Wolves to have the ability to take Thunderwolves which are pretty much anti-all ground. I played a 1500 highlander game yesterday and my wolves took out a Sicaran, a Predator Plasma variant, a rhino, a chaos lord, and a squad of noise marines- only losing 4 cyber wolves that were with the iron priest.

[Frater Cornelius]

Just consider yourself lucky with Space Wolves to have the ability to take Thunderwolves which are pretty much anti-all ground. I played a 1500 highlander game yesterday and my wolves took out a Sicaran, a Predator Plasma variant, a rhino, a chaos lord, and a squad of noise marines- only losing 4 cyber wolves that were with the iron priest.

 

TWC aren't the be all end all though. I had games where they folded turn 1.

[sn33r]

Immersturm you are correct the only problem is we don't have anything else with out allies..lol

[NightHowler]

Earlier in this thread I mention TWC and flyers are both a good counter to titans.  Our TWC are really good, but our fliers are also very good.  Unlike most flyers, with the Wolves Unleashed detachment our flyers can outflank and we are guaranteed to get one every turn.  With two flyers coming from different sides, a knight has to pick one for his shields, leaving the other side defenseless.

[pstj]

Tomorrow I'll be facing a Hierophant biotitan for the first time. I'm sparring a friend of mine for a tournament and he's bringing to table the Hierophant, one Mawloc, two Flyrants and a number of gaunts equal to points left over for 1850 pts. I have no idea what I'm going to do with the gargantuan moster but I'm thinking about locking it to combat with a large pack of TWC. Still not sure what to do with the rest of the 'nids...

[Skallagoose]

 

Just consider yourself lucky with Space Wolves to have the ability to take Thunderwolves which are pretty much anti-all ground. I played a 1500 highlander game yesterday and my wolves took out a Sicaran, a Predator Plasma variant, a rhino, a chaos lord, and a squad of noise marines- only losing 4 cyber wolves that were with the iron priest.

 

TWC aren't the be all end all though. I had games where they folded turn 1.

 

No doubt. They aren't an auto-win, but they fit a large section of what is needed in a game. When i think of an army list i construct it like a jig-saw puzzle, with certain units fitting certain roles. What i meant by my statement was that bare-bones thunder wolves are good against infantry, elite infantry, light armor. Upgrade thunder wolves and you get them good against things such as heavy armor as well (5 S9/S10 attacks on charge depending on your interpretation of the rules). So when fitting together that jig-saw TWC are a big piece of the puzzle. And of course if you have a TWC based army there will be games when it disappears turn one- granted thats every army and just the luck of the dice sometimes.

 

As to dealing with a bio-titan. I'd suggest trying to get a wound or two off of it with ranged. Let it come to you and do some punishment to it as it approaches. Then maybe arjac's shield brothers at it. A 3+ invul will keep some of them there a little longer… But honestly you're probably going to be trading points if your opponent rolls average. I never played a bio-titan but i watched a game at my local store where one destroyed almost everything.

[Frater Cornelius]

Immersturm you are correct the only problem is we don't have anything else with out allies..lol

 

I am not saying that you should skip TWC. On the contrary. They are amazing. However, putting your hope into one unit is not something a wise general would do. You always need a back-up plan. Having everything in your list set up to support the TWC, it will fail eventually. It needs to function on its own terms. When you can pull that off, you got it ;)

[sn33r]

Ha ha ha immersturm you are on the money again.. but what about ravenwing command with the twc loads of plasma shooting the bio-titan then charge it with the twc plus you can hit and run..