Venn Diagram

[Paulochromis]

Hi guys,

 

Trying to do some research before I re-purpose my current 6th ed BA/SW combo

(Mephy, Priest, 2 ASM, 2 SR, Sternguard in a Pod, allied Rune Priest & 2 GH in Pods)

 

Money is tight so cant buy much more than the new C:BA codex, if that.

 

Before I decide whether to return the army to C:SM or to keep it as C:BA I'm trying to determine what the real differences are between C:SM and C:BA. Kind of a Venn Diagram.

 

This is what I have so far

C:BA only:

Special Characters: Astorath, Dante, Mephiston, Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, (Seth)

BA Units: Sanguinary Priests, Sanguinary Guard, Furioso Dreads, Baal Preds, Fast Vehicles

Oddballs: PA with JP and meltagun (ASM), PA with JP and bolter (DC), plain PA with Heavy Flamer (Tact)

Weapons: hand-flamers, inferno pistols

 

C:SM only:

Special Characters: too many

SM Units: Crusader Squads, Ironclad Dread, Centurions (Assault & Dev), Stormtalon, Hunter, Stalker, Thunderfire Cannon

Oddballs: LotD (although with its own supplement they could be allied in)

 

All the rest is common.

 

So my questions for you are:

• firstly, can I make a decent BA army without BA-specific units (and obviously no C:SM specifics), and
• secondly, is it worth it?

 

[appiah4]

To make sure I get what you mean, you want to avoid buying the new C:BA and use C:SM rules to make a Red SM detachment? Well.. Yes, but why? It would only be a handicapped SM army if you skip SM only units, and it would definitely not play like a BA army since you won't get the BA detachment rules..  What BA units you already have are all good enough to field a BA army, you will just have to repurpose some SM tacticals into BA tacticals.  Just go get the Codex if money is available.  You won't regret it.

[Orogen]

appiah, I think what the OP is asking is to pick up the BA codex and run blue marines as BA.  Specifically, can a BA list be created with normal codex marines without any of the BA specific units?

And heck yeah you can!  With what you have there, you're in decent shape.  As long as you have some jump marines and a sang. priest/Corbulo you should have a decent backbone - go with the Baal Strike Force for old school red thirst.  Ally with codex marines for a chapter master, thunderfire or centurions, and storm talon and you will have a decent force.

Cheers!

[Xenith]

*Sigh*.

 

Paulo has a marine army, but no current codex. He wants to know whether he can get the most mileage from his units by using them as Codex Marines or Codex Blood Angels.

 

You pretty much have the units, but I dont see why you need to list them.

 

The models you have can be used in either army, with the rune priest being a librarian, and Meph being a captain.

 

Pick the one with the rules you like the best. Picking BA means less repainting, though :)

[Lucumon]

I came here for the Venn Diagram.... where is it?

 

You got me all hot and bothered for a graphic.

[Morticon]

I think you should paint up a successor chapter, so you can use what you want, when you want!

[DominicJ]

We aren't that different to codex marines.

 

DC are stand outs

 

Sang guard and independent priests are uniqueish, but 2+ save honour guard and command medics exist.

 

Fast vehicles and melta pistols are hardly game changers

Handy, but not game changing.

[Paulochromis]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

 

@appiah5 - not quite

@Xenith - thanks for the sigh

 

So I really want to use jump pack marines - I already have a bike-oriented army (White Scars) and a terminator-oriented army (Deathwing).

 

My old C:BA army (had the old 'dex) was my jumpers as troop army, but the new C:BA 'dex = no more jump troops (sadface)

So I could go C:SM Raven Guard (with Forgeworld Korydae) or Fire Hawks. Or I could stick with C:BA

 

I'm happy to buy the codex, but not really able to buy additional models.

So given those constraints, how "good" is an army using C:BA without C:BA-specific units/models?

I'm happy to convert apothecaries to sang priests.

I'm happy to convert/use bolter marines as DC and/or add bolters to JPs to make JP DC as well.

I have a Mephiston (converted Emperoro's Champion) that I'm happy with.

 

I'm looking to avoid situations where it turns out that the only decent dread is a Furioso (or for that matter an Ironclad - I have neither)

Likewise, I don't want to go MSU, say, and find out that the lynchpin is Baal predators (or Stormtalons).

Or jump-pack heavy (with/without DC) and find out that Dante or Astorath is an absolute must (although they are probably convertable).

 

I'd like to think that I'm NOT jumping on the new codex bandwagon - I already had a C:BA army.

What I'm trying to find out is whether the new codex still permits decent armies without BA-specific units.

If not then I will probably forgo C:BA and revert to C:SM.

 

I want to give the new C:BA a chance, though. I feel that the last codex certainly did allow good non-BA-specific armies.

Looking through the Army List section over time, what I think I'm actually seeing is a shift to FW units (Sicaran, Fire Raptor, Damocles, Hyperios launchers) rather than inclusion of C:BA-specific units (although DC seem to be on the rise).

 

Sorry to go on and on.

 

Oh and least for me, colour and codex are unrelated so paint isn't relevant. I already have my colour scheme. 

[Arkangilos]

 

I'd like to think that I'm NOT jumping on the new codex bandwagon - I already had a C:BA army.

What I'm trying to find out is whether the new codex still permits decent armies without BA-specific units.

 

All units have furious charge. So basically, tacticals, devastators, assaults, command squads, veterans, etc. are Codex +1. 

 

Also, if you take the detachment (easy to take) you get +1 initiative. 

 

 

You just lose access to a few units, but since you can't afford to buy any extra, I don't see why you wouldn't want to just take the BA?

[Quixus]

The models you have can be used in either army, with the rune priest being a librarian, and Meph being a captain.

Mephi would be a librarian as well.

 

Unfortunately with the new codex you can no longer make a detachment with only JP units unless you want to go unbound. You need at least 1 non-JP troop (if the other troop choice is the DC squad from Shield of Baal).

 

Corection, there are some Formations that can be built solely from dual purpose units. Many of them however are not JP themed and none of them have the +1I that really helps CC armies.

 

@Arkangilos: The flip side is that the troops don't have ObSec unless you do a CAD or the Angel's Fury Spearhead Froceformation, which do not grant the +1I.

[Paulochromis]

Thanks guys,

 

Here are some of the thoughts I've had to justify (re)choosing C:BA

 

Assault Marine jumpers can be ASM,or Vanguard plus DC, Sang Guard and Command Squad

Assault Marine jumpers can get multiple meltas (cf Chaos raptors)

Assault Marines, without jump packs, can get multiple meltas and free vehicles

Dread can be a Librarian, and get wings (I think), and can get Divination

Furious Charge as a "chapter tactic" is better than C:SM Raven Guard tactics for JP-heavy armies

 

On this last one, it looks like it's whole army, not just jumpers (thanks Arkangilos) provided it's a CAD (thanks Quixus).

 

I posted an army list -->http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303002-2000-ba-using-existing-models

[Xenith]

 

The models you have can be used in either army, with the rune priest being a librarian, and Meph being a captain.

Mephi would be a librarian as well.

 

Unfortunately with the new codex you can no longer make a detachment with only JP units unless you want to go unbound. You need at least 1 non-JP troop (if the other troop choice is the DC squad from Shield of Baal).

 

 

 

Cough *Flesh Tearers* Cough.

 

They may be your answer. If I remember correctly the Flesh Tearer force org chart is minimum 1HQ, 1 Troop, 1 fast attack, with the option for 6 more fast attacks, all of which can be jump marines.

 

If you use the deathstorm death co squad as your troop choice, then you get a full JParmy.

 

Although this doesn't really help, as you need the BA codex, and then a £40 supplement.

 

Blood Angels are indeed the best way to get the most amount of jump packs onto the table. If that is the army you want to make, go BA!