Marshal Reinhard Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 So I've been wondering... In the 40k era marines are organized around Chapters while in the 30k era of HH we instead have the legions and the two are very different type of beasts indeed. This is especially clear when one considers their different rules (Codex vs. Crusade army list). But what would a force around the second founding be like. I'm thinking specifically of Sigismund's Templar but this question could be applied to any second founding chapter. In the case of Siggy, I believe its been stated he led the Templar for over a 1000 years as their High marshal. I would imagine at least for a start, they would operate very similiarly as to how they had when they were part of Sigismunds Chapter within the Fists Legion. Suppose you wanted to represent this force with Legion rules. For one, Sigismund himself is part of the Chapter (perhaps even more to the point: some chapters would still have their primarchs!), and has his own rules and stats as part of the HH rules. There are perhaps two very notable "issues" with using Legion rules to represent a post Heresy force however: One is of course that Sigismund's Templar is not the Fists legion, but a greatly reduced formation. So some ranks and positions would no longer be available/used. The second is that the whole of the Heresy has taken place and the damage to Imperium has been made, so some type of wargear and whatnot are no longer obtainable either (volkites etc). So the fluffy approach is perhaps a reduced form of Legion rules (Ie, just arbitrarily prohibiting myself from taking some options) So my question is: if I wanted to play a Templar force, or a 31-32k era marine force in general, using Legion rules what should I avoid taking to keep it "fluffy"? Not looking for a compiled list of approvals covering every tank variant in the crusade army list, but perhaps rather a discussion of "You shouldn't be able to use Legion centurions vs. sure you can use centurions, they're like company captains" or "no volkites except for a few characters" and the like. Does anyone have any pointers when putting together such a force? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Reducing Volkites and Graviton Weapons (they go through a massive rework into 40K rules) is a big one. However, as originally post Heresy forces, they have much more stuff than even 40K legions. It's not clear if Crusader squads came into action, but you might want to start running some melee versions of these - Recon Squad, Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol and CCW, meltabombs, etc. No Librarians, obviously. Possibly reducing the number of jetbikes available, along with the Heresy pattern vehicles (like the Javelin). The problem is with lists like these isn't really a case of "it's a post heresy list", as most points levels means you just don't have the points to take it all anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I personally would have no problem playing against a Templar army led by sigusmund representing the scouring era through to the first black crusade using the CAL. I personally would think that's how the Templars would have done it, being as they don't really give a damn about the Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparika Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 As for any other legion it would up to how much they follow the Codex Astartes at the time. The (only ?) difference being the merging of tactical and tactical support squad into a single squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I feel like you're making this into a bigger 'issue' than it really is... or maybe I'm reading the OP wrong. All the tech/formations/etc. didn't just stop existing the moment the traitors ran from the Sol system with their collective tail between their legs. Take everything that the Imperial Fists Legion would have at their disposal, because you know for damn certain that Papa Dorn wouldn't say no to the Emperor's Champion if he asked for that big tank in the back, and that huge cannon o'er there, and throw in a few of those doodads behind you. Crusader squads? Sounds like a twenty man despoiler squad to me. The Scouring era is just the Heresy era with a little more weathering. Edit: We know what Sigismund thought of the Codex, so worrying about 'if they followed it' really isn't an issue. Edit #2: Paint them :cuss black, and hey diddle diddle straight up the middle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939857 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 LongGone: Oh there is no real "problem" as such. I just want black IF marines that entirely use Templar iconography and play them with IF Legion rules, and I realize there's no real obstacle to keep me from doing so. Was perhaps a bit wordy in my opening, thinking aloud a lot, and all of these restrictions I was thinking of would be entirely selfimposed. The reason would be two fold: to try and be "fluff accurate" (hah) and also allow me to reuse some 40k assets, as I have a rather sizeable Black Templar force (albeit with a _very_ HH inspired armory) Thinking about it more however the list of choices to avoid might be really small indeed, (on the top of my head, I can only really think of Legion Preator, that doesn't make much sense I think, unless using hiim as a counts as master of sanctity or something). So perhaps this really is mostly a question of modeling more than unfluffy rules choices. Speaking of which, is there any information when Mk 7 PA and the like come into use? I could've sworn I read Indomnitus pattern Terminator armor was stated to be cocurrent with Cataphractii and Tartaros patterns, so those should feel alright to use, but not sure mk7 PA would feel alright in a scouring era force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Mk VII came into use at the Siege of Terra after Sigismund Liberated a few thousand sets from Mars. Indomitus, Tartaros and Cataphractii are all concurrent. Tartaros being the most advanced, Cataphractii being the most Esoteric with its shield generators in the shoulders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well damn. Perhaps then all I need to do is get some Templar Brethren and Sigismund and I'll be mostly set. (Are they making a model for Sigismund? It seems every Legion get one Legion champion in addition their Primarch... and IF got Polux incoming...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Of all of the Chapters which were formed during the aftermath of the Heresy, IMO the Templars would be the ones which would most closely represent/reflect the 30K Heresy Legions. My impression of the way the Templars were formed was basically Rogal gave Sigi carte blanche to take what and who he wanted to continue with the Great Crusade in what ever way he saw fit, kind of Dorn's way of giving Girlyman the finger while complying with the Codex in all other regards. I think for the first thousand or so year the Templars would be roaming around the Imperium as one hell of a potent force and a symbol of what once was, holding onto as many relics and formations as possible, but slowly most of these would be destroyed, lost, break down etc. I effectively did the reverse of what you are looking at, I started with a reaosnably sized Black Templar force and then started reverting them back to the Heresy (before 30K was released), making sure all of the troops were wearing Mk II or III, and then when 30K was released I was set! I converted all of my units to be 30K compliant and have only expanded the force if it was allowed in a 30K list, the fact that they (FW) then made the Templars a major component on the Imperial Fists was even better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/212277-kildrech-crusade-modeling-diary/page-13 Work your way backward from the last page to see most of the 30K stuff, there is a lot more now, I havent been keeping the diary up to date. I am trying to do the same thing as you, use the same force for both 30K and 40K. For my 40K list however, I predominantly use Siege Assault Vangaurd, it fits very nicely into the 30K feel. You can get Breacher equivilants (Siege Mantlets), Dreadnought Talons, Rapiers, Tarantulas, Spartans etc. It is well worth looking into and it is FREE from Forge World. You still get to use Chapter Tactics, so you can use Black Templar and get their little buffs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Ah, Dono, the absolute magnitude of your Crusade is jawdropping as always. I do agree though, that Templar look really good in mk II and III armor. I have much love for later patterns as well though, so I doubt I'll go fully your route and make the force entirely mk II or III. Good advice with the SAV list. Might just have convinced me to get some Breachers. Got some itch for more shielded marines after seeing yours all lined up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Let me ask you this; Why would they NOT do Sigismund? They're doing Polux and they've done Kharne, Abaddon, Loken, Sevatar, etc. Them not doing Sigismund would be shooting themselves in the foot. Have faith in FW! Dono is pretty spot on in all other regards. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The strong rumour is that the recent IF command squad was an aborted attempt at Sigismund, a virtual copy of the image on the cover of Templar which, while quite accurate, simply didnt have the same level of 'awesomeness' that the other members of the Character Series have displayed. Repurpose it to something else and back to the drawing board, I suspect we MIGHT hear something more this weekend? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939995 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The strong rumour is that the recent IF command squad was an aborted attempt at Sigismund, a virtual copy of the image on the cover of Templar which, while quite accurate, simply didnt have the same level of 'awesomeness' that the other members of the Character Series have displayed. Repurpose it to something else and back to the drawing board, I suspect we MIGHT hear something more this weekend? Its either Him, Dorn, or Perturabo and Iron Warriors stuff since theres a seminar dedicated to both legions. Hopefully we see some Raven Guard stuff because they've literally gotten nothing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3939997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 See, I don't see why you couldn't use a praetor in your list if you wanted to. Yeah, Sigismund is a praetor level character, but there's no restriction on having two on the table is there? Or is there? I honestly don't know. You can easily craft a fluffy reason for Sigi to have a right hand man. As you stated earlier, the only thing fluff would keep you from fielding is a librarian. No big loss there, as you have all the other consul types to choose from. Like Slip was saying, you even have justification to throw in newer marks of armor. Bottom line up front: the Scouring enjoys the same advantage the Heresy does, in that the only limitation is your fluffgination... your imagifluff...whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3940161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 See, I don't see why you couldn't use a praetor in your list if you wanted to. Yeah, Sigismund is a praetor level character, but there's no restriction on having two on the table is there? Or is there? I honestly don't know. You can easily craft a fluffy reason for Sigi to have a right hand man. As you stated earlier, the only thing fluff would keep you from fielding is a librarian. No big loss there, as you have all the other consul types to choose from. Like Slip was saying, you even have justification to throw in newer marks of armor. Bottom line up front: the Scouring enjoys the same advantage the Heresy does, in that the only limitation is your fluffgination... your imagifluff...whatever. You can, actually, if you wanted, fill all three slots with preators if you wanted. But if your taking Sigismund, why take another Preator when you can Take a Primus Medicae, run him with Siggy and give him FNP to boot? Or A librarian (assuming you are going for pre-Nikea) for Psychic Shenanigans? A preator is pure beatstick whose only buffs come from the RoW. Other than that, point him at something and get to chopping. Having 2-3 seems...pointless :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3940166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongGone Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Or is it extra choppiness? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3940175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 So I've more or less settled for this idea, as I feel it makes the most sense given my crusades armory. I'm curious what people would think would be an ideal ratio of Power armor marks in such a force. I mean, again, I realize there's nothing stopping me from making all of them mk2 or mk7 or anything in between since they all existed at this point. But what would people feel the most apropriate for scouring era force? Should it predominantly be beakies, harkening back to RT, with some noticable portions of mk3 and 4's and some squads using the newfangled mk7? The goal would be to make the force feel different from a 40k era force, but not quite full on Great Crusade Legion feel either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3941184 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you want a post-siege force, the most widespread would be Mk V due to it being a hodgepodge stop gap suit so; Mk V > Mk II and Mk III > Mk IV > or = Mk VII Mk VI I don't really see finding a place :p Thats how I feel, anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3941628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Didnt Sigismund lead the strike against Mars which siezed a massive cache of Mk IV Power Armour? Pretty sure that a good chunk of those might have found their way into the ranks of the 1st Company, so you could do a nice portion of MkIV in there, maybe painted a little cleaner than the rest of the Mk II and III to represent them being quite new? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3941682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well, unless immediately after the end of the Heresy, I guess mark V's would start getting replaced. "Few Imperial Space Marines are ever seen in Mark V suits today, as the loyalist Chapters either broke up these suits for spares or purposefully destroyed them after the Heresy was over." to quote Lexicanum (no idea of its validity). I see your point though. Since I wanted to avoid too many mk7's, that leaves mk2's 3's and 4's if not 6's. I guess the answer could simply be: a healthy mix. Thanks for the input though EDIT: Dono, you're right. Well, that certainly will carry some weight in my next FW order... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3941683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Pretty sure the new Command Squad for the IF are in Mk IV? Edit: Yep they sure are - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_FISTS_LEGION_COMMAND.html http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/IF-Command-1.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3941863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkyn Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 If I was to do a Scouring-era Templars force (which has crossed my mind, for the record), I would have primarily Mk3's and Mk4's. A smattering of Mk6, and in a complete opposite direction of what most 40k players do, a few suits of Mk7 on command and sergeants. I would imagine that by the end of the Heresy, Mk2 would have been phased out almost completely, as even at the end of the Crusade, before the Heresy, it was becoming rarer, being replaced with Mk4 in most Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302977-sigismunds-templar-or-post-heresy-hh-forces-in-general/#findComment-3941979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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