Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Is anyone else unhappy with the new Codex? I've been playing BA since they were released in 5th in 2010 and played them almost exclusively and competitively for 4 years, almost always doing well. With this new Codex I just find myself making lists and then scrapping them as I don't think they're good enough for my Tournament Meta which contains Grav spam White Scars, Triple Riptide/Sky Rays and what seems to be the superior SW. What do ye think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolchiate Remembrancer Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'm actually very excited by it. I play for fun and so to be able to build lots of different lists to match my different opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landrick Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 sounds like you play with power gamers that need the trademarked Paul Murphy life talk. please see www.forgethenarrative.com for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well I've played every edition of BA, and I love it. If you started in 5th I find it very strange that you struggle only now with the new book, can I assume you ran razorback assault squad spam? What do you have for models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Is anyone else unhappy with the new Codex? I've been playing BA since they were released in 5th in 2010 and played them almost exclusively and competitively for 4 years, almost always doing well. With this new Codex I just find myself making lists and then scrapping them as I don't think they're good enough for my Tournament Meta which contains Grav spam White Scars, Triple Riptide/Sky Rays and what seems to be the superior SW. What do ye think? I think BA can compete, but the units that are "competitive" can be counted on one hand, pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'm more fluff and fun player and less competitive. I'm also very new. I own the previous codex, but I've only played under this one. So far I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 sounds like you play with power gamers that need the trademarked Paul Murphy life talk. please see www.forgethenarrative.com for details Our Meta is very competitive and that's what we all like, our tournaments are made around grtting drunk and continuously heckling your opponent into the ground, all about bragging rights :p but that's Ireland for ya! We also play a good amount of fun games and I myself am even running a Tale of Gamers which is just about building/painting/playing fun armies. Well I've played every edition of BA, and I love it. If you started in 5th I find it very strange that you struggle only now with the new book, can I assume you ran razorback assault squad spam? What do you have for models? I've been playing since 3rd but only playing BA since 5th when they were released. I used Assault based armies focusing around Jump Marines and Storm Ravens, however something like that isn't too feasible anymore due to the game being based around shooting which you'd be better off playing a different book for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Wait, what? In the last edition you ran a more expensive, arguably lesser potent force than you can now and you felt that was more competitive? Sorry, but I feel like I'm missing something. A jump list can still be done, all you need to do is spend 110 points on some Scouts. BSF makes our RAS infinitely more potent, jump pack DC have become more viable and even SG have been buffed to become useful. Librarian powers are on the whole more useful for a jump list, whilst it could be argued that our Priests have become better for a single squad. How can you say that WS 5, STR 5, INT 5 isn't an improvement? Then we have grav which changes everything. Bikes have suddenly become a staple to most lists and with triple Grav you have your answer to Riptides, et al. Who cares if they can't be spammed like White Scars? It's not about how big you grav army is, it's how you use it... or something. If Skyrays are ruining your day, "Meltacide" (cheap RAS or combat squadded Sternguard) them. A decent jump list should be running Pods anyway for distraction, no? And besides, as per the Tau Codex they should only be firing up to two missiles a turn anyway. Running out of Fast Attack slots? Take a second BSF for a mere 110 points more (you're taking a second HQ anyway no doubt). Could you post up some lists you've been chewing over? Spoiler them if you think they will take up too much room. I can't help but wonder if it's a lack of confidence/familiarity of the new Codex that's really the problem because I know that I feel that way at times when trying to redo every list of mine. I'm sorry, I don't wish this post to sound like it has but it makes my mind boggle somewhat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 It's not that BA are a weak CC army, far from it, it's that CC is just weaker in this edition than previous ones. Random charge length, overwatch and intercept really knock Deepstrikers/Assault armies down a peg not a mind you can't assault out of anything but an Assault Vehicle now either. Sitting in the open for a true before charging is silly. Having things like Feel No Pain is handy and all but when you're being intercepted by 3 Riptide or overwatched by a whole Tau army it's no craic. I've posted some lists in the List section already and I'm still working on a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 If you want to compete with top armies, for me there is no way around allying. Bring 3 gravcents with Mephiston in a BA pod, add a Raukaan chaptermaster to tank for your cc squads, things like that. Its good that the new codices are toned down, but it also makes it hard to compete directly with the armies that are not yet reworked. Also if you hate pure Tau just wait until you meet Tau+Eldar, riptides plus wraithknight and serpents is even more terrible^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Don't get me wrong, I think the codex is really nice and has some really good units. However... With so many different assault units occupying the same spots, you end up basically defaulting to the same type of assault unit. Why spend the points for VanVets/SangGuard/Command Squad when DC are much more effective? Why spend points on Assault Marines when bikes are more effective? Baal Preds? Why bother since you need the points for your Storm Ravens. So given this logic, you basically only have DC that seems to be most "effective" in its assault role. One would argue that instead of a full army of BA, just ally BA to a standard marine force to get access to DCs and an effective shooting army. Needless to say, I've scrapped several lists because it just can't get my list right. That balance between enough shooting units, enough anti-armor and enough anti-infantry is difficult for me. On top of that, I've got a hodgepodge of units that are no longer effective due to adding things over the course of 3rd - 7th edition. Since most everything is already painted, I struggle to break them apart to make them valid again. Just my opinion. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I disagree that DC are the only competative assault unit in the codex. There was a thread a little while comparing SG, DC and VV. While the VV did not do so well in the comparison, SG come out quite well. They are slightly more focussed than DC (who will butcher anything) but are more efficient against a lot of elite units. Also they are more durable, especially if you add a Priest for FNP. They will take half the casualties from small arms fire and will shrug off hits from Battlecannons that would wipe the DC out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I disagree that DC are the only competative assault unit in the codex. There was a thread a little while comparing SG, DC and VV. While the VV did not do so well in the comparison, SG come out quite well. They are slightly more focussed than DC (who will butcher anything) but are more efficient against a lot of elite units. Also they are more durable, especially if you add a Priest for FNP. They will take half the casualties from small arms fire and will shrug off hits from Battlecannons that would wipe the DC out. This is true but I take an unfocussed unit to mean most effective against all types; overall more effective than a slightly specialized unit that is better against certain units. Please don't get me wrong on this. I like using what we have. I take things like van vets, sang guard and the like because they look cool. However building lists is really hard and I have to compromise heavily in one direction or another to get anything in. Most of those competitive marine lists out there seem to have no problem with keeping up the shooting meta. Our problem is that any shooting we have means we are skimping on those nice assault units which then gets into a downward spiral of "Why take this, when I can just go with that". It's just bloody difficult to deal with. It's also the problem I have with certain opinions advocating certain units which, though we can take them, is not really the focus of our codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 If you want to compete with top armies, for me there is no way around allying. Bring 3 gravcents with Mephiston in a BA pod, add a Raukaan chaptermaster to tank for your cc squads, things like that. Its good that the new codices are toned down, but it also makes it hard to compete directly with the armies that are not yet reworked. Also if you hate pure Tau just wait until you meet Tau+Eldar, riptides plus wraithknight and serpents is even more terrible^^ Oh I've seen Tau/Eldar, it's just played by one player in our meta really so it's not really a worry. Don't get me wrong, I think the codex is really nice and has some really good units. However... With so many different assault units occupying the same spots, you end up basically defaulting to the same type of assault unit. Why spend the points for VanVets/SangGuard/Command Squad when DC are much more effective? Why spend points on Assault Marines when bikes are more effective? Baal Preds? Why bother since you need the points for your Storm Ravens. So given this logic, you basically only have DC that seems to be most "effective" in its assault role. One would argue that instead of a full army of BA, just ally BA to a standard marine force to get access to DCs and an effective shooting army. Needless to say, I've scrapped several lists because it just can't get my list right. That balance between enough shooting units, enough anti-armor and enough anti-infantry is difficult for me. On top of that, I've got a hodgepodge of units that are no longer effective due to adding things over the course of 3rd - 7th edition. Since most everything is already painted, I struggle to break them apart to make them valid again. Just my opinion. YMMV. Agree 100% and I'm playing at 1650 so adding in allies and things like Grav Centurions/Meph make the army too elite for my liking in this edition anyway. For reference in 5th edition I ran a Twin Raven/Twin Furioso/Meph and Assault Terminators with 2 Squads of full Assault Marines and some scouts so I'm not afraid of elite armies but in this edition is focused on Tactical Objectives, which I prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 For reference in 5th edition I ran a Twin Raven/Twin Furioso/Meph and Assault Terminators with 2 Squads of full Assault Marines and some scouts so I'm not afraid of elite armies but in this edition is focused on Tactical Objectives, which I prefer. That sort of list will still work, and likely be cheaper; assault is more difficult in this edition but it's not dead and obviously over-watch is less an issue for marines than most other armies. Random charge length is not the doom-and-gloom people predicted either and especially jump-pack units should have no issue; I typically attempt much longer assaults now, and I typically get them. Further assaulting out of a raven is great since you dissembark (fully within 6") of the flying base; although it is a bit scary to go into hover mode sometimes hah. Between the ravens and the assault squads, and infiltrating scouts you should still be ok with tactical objective as well. I'd just ditch Mephiston and add Corbulo and either a Chaplain (for zealot) or another SP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 That sort of list will still work, and likely be cheaper; assault is more difficult in this edition but it's not dead and obviously over-watch is less an issue for marines than most other armies. Random charge length is not the doom-and-gloom people predicted either and especially jump-pack units should have no issue; I typically attempt much longer assaults now, and I typically get them. Further assaulting out of a raven is great since you dissembark (fully within 6") of the flying base; although it is a bit scary to go into hover mode sometimes hah. Between the ravens and the assault squads, and infiltrating scouts you should still be ok with tactical objective as well. I'd just ditch Mephiston and add Corbulo and either a Chaplain (for zealot) or another SP. I don't think it will work personally, for one it was built as a full reserve army back in the day which is not possible now and for the most part, will get intercepted into the ground. I don't think using Ravens as proper assault vehicles now due to them having to hover and if they get destroyed when flying you can say good bye to whatever is inside, generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I agree that just a few scout squads on the table alone is a very risky way to start the game, it would need some tweaking; I've been doing the same with scouts and drop-pods (and a single StormRaven and deep strikers) but at least then 2 (of the 3) pods come in on turn 1. StormRavens are great though and tough to kill (on the whole much tougher than in the last edition where you ran 2 of them). I've been playing some very shooty Eldar armies and they've done well and you only have to hover on the turn you're delivering the goods (assaulters!); just don't wait too long. I guess 'intercepter' stuff is pretty non-existent around here but I could see that being a concern if you face a lot of it? Thing is, 5th ed was so "List"-centric. You could build lists tailored for every occasion and the game was won and lost at your computer rather than on the table. Lists are still important but the reason I love this edition so much is because you have to play to win. Yes, sometimes stuff dies, and sometimes you lose but if you were doing ok using the old codex and that list, even in 5th edition, I can't imagine you having too much trouble with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Lucius Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 I agree that just a few scouts squad on the table alone is a very risky way to start the game, it would need some tweaking; I've been doing the same with scouts and drop-pods (and a single StormRaven and deep strikers) but at least then 2 (of the 3) pods come in on turn 1. StormRavens are great though and tough to kill (on the whole much tougher than in the last edition where you ran 2 of them). I've been playing some very shooty Eldar armies and they've done well and you only have to hover on the turn you're delivering the goods (assaulters!); just don't wait too long. I guess 'intercepter' stuff is pretty non-existent around here but I could see that being a concern if you face a lot of it. Thing is, 5th ed was so "List"-centric. You could build lists tailored for every occasion and the game was won and lost at your computer rather than on the table. Lists are still important but the reason I love this edition so much is because you have to play to win. Yes, sometimes stuff dies, and sometimes you lose but if you were doing ok using the old codex, even in 5th edition, I can't imagine you having too much trouble with this one. I'll definitely be giving Ravens a run out alright, just not sure when, probably when the points aren't at 1650. Right now I'm looking at this as a reasonably balanced list: 1650 FT Strike Force Sang Priest, Bike, Combi-Grav, Extra Pistol, Melta Bombs 9 DC, 2 Power Fist, 1 Power Weapon, JP's 9 DC, 2 Power Fist, 1 Power Weapon, JP's 5 Tacs, HF, Pod 5 Tacs, HF, Pod 5 Assault Marines, Pod, 2 Melta's, Combi-Melta 5 Assault Marines, Pod, 2 Melta's, Combi-Melta 5 Assault Marines, Pod, 2 Melta's, Combi-Melta 5 Bikers, 2 Grav Guns, Combi-Grav 5 Bikers, 2 Grav Guns, Combi-Grav 5 Bikers, 2 Grav Guns, Combi-Grav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 StormRavens are great though and tough to kill (on the whole much tougher than in the last edition where you ran 2 of them). I've been playing some very shooty Eldar armies and they've done well and you only have to hover on the turn you're delivering the goods (assaulters!); just don't wait too long. If you get CCW Scouts and a Dread with magna grapples, you can safely disembark them using the "Skies of Fury" rule. They both have move through cover and so will automatically pass their dangerous terrain check, even if they do scatter when bailing out. Of course that will potentially leave them vulnerable to shooting for a turn before they can assault. I guess you will have to judge which risk is more acceptable. If you are facing a lot of anti-infantry weapons, keep the infantry on board and drop into hover mode the turn after they come on. If you are facing a few high strength attacks, it may be safer to bail the infantry and dreadnought at altitude and keep the Raven zooming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Very good point, I hadn't even thought about doing that with scouts. Like the OP's original list I've been running assault terminators in mine, so I'll often drop my dread with SoF, but still eventually go into hover (hopefully) to deliver my termies on target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 10 ccw scouts in a raven is an awesome unit actually :) the scouts, are only 110pts and have great output on the charge, cheap and useful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I dont like the change to to tactical troops only, but it is fluffy. We are, for the most part, a very codex chapter. Flamer / Heavy Flamer / Hand Flamer tacticals in a pod are BRUTAL, add 7 rapid firing bolt guns and you nuke a hard squad when you deploy, kill half a marine squad if you hit them all with flamers, then another one or two with bolters And its not like Tactical marines are bad in the assault, sure, they arent perfect, but they hit before and harder than normal assault marines. I wish I could give my assault marines bolt guns rather than tacticals chainswords, but hey ho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I have mixed feelings so far i have not yet had a chance to play with the new dex but so far for the most part it is not looking too good. this is from what i have read and so i have not read everything. Pros point reduction on most units ASM can have 4 meltas in a 5 man now(got to love gunslinger sarges!) we got grav Cons Many units moved to already congested slots our troops now suck(imo us having ASM as troops is part of why i started BA) Furiosos/DC dreads forgot how to fight and lost weapons and WS Leo/chaplains are now garbage due to them not helping dc and being like reg SM now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Once you've played some games, many of your fears will be dealt with. Cons Many units moved to already congested slots our troops now suck(imo us having ASM as troops is part of why i started BA) Furiosos/DC dreads forgot how to fight and lost weapons and WS Leo/chaplains are now garbage due to them not helping dc and being like reg SM now Congested slots aren't a problem at all with the myriad of formations and multiple detachments available to us. Right now, C:SM are wishing they had Tacticals like us and Scouts rock. Our Dreadnoughts being reigned in to where they should have been isn't a problem. The only weapon we lost was the magna grapple which has been changed to something more useful and appropriate. It was never supposed to be a pseudo melta gun. Both tweaks mean more thought goes into their use. Chaplains and Lemartes caused DC to re-roll their to hits in the first round of combat as opposed to the one they charged. Have re-roll to wound as well was arguably a little too much and it seems fitting that only Astorath has it to give you a reason to choose him over the cheaper, yet more flexible HQ Chaplain. Seriously, don't think about it in a "OMG NERF!" kind of way: think about it with an opened mind and what you can do with what you have. This book is the way forward, grumbling over the past book isn't going to get you anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusara217 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you guys ever google reviews of the Blood Angel book, there are a lot in-depth analyses of the units and tactics now available. I've read like five or six positive to only a single negative - you guys need to stop comparing to the old book (though this is actually a step up) and just look at what we have. We can run shooty lists like no other marines can. You can run four meltas in a single 5-man Assault Squad. You can run 3 in a Tactical Squad on top of a special weapon like Plasma. You can run 2 meltas and 2 gravs in an assault squad. Do you have any idea how OP it is to drop pod a Melta Squad that also has Grav? On top of our awesome Tacs and ASM, we have price cuts across the board and DC is :cussing magical. We have a good codex, if you aren't doing good, then it's on you, the player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.