Kilofix Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Some context first, bear with me and I'll get back to 40K in a moment: I watched a movie with my wife. Won't mention which movie because this isn't about the movie but that the movie prompted my wife to ask me as to why men voluntarily leave their families to go to war. I told her it's probably about some sense of duty. She then asked as to "when" a man would consider duty to be "done". So I thought about it some more, and said that as time goes on, duty may wane or may be considered by some to be "sufficient", but then it's probably replaced by a stronger sense of the type of camaraderie that can only be forged through battle. She accepted that but couldn't completely relate to it. But in that moment, a whole bunch of 30K / 40K notions dawned on me. I imagine the sense of camaraderie the Crusade folks must have experienced - thousands of blood brothers (almost literally) on a galaxy spanning (xenocidal) endeavor. I imagine then what it must have been like for those who had to make the choice between duty and camaraderie during the Heresy. I imagine the sense of broken camaraderie that had to have been experienced by Guilliman or Dorn when they realized that half the Legions had turned. Even in fiction, it evokes a strong response. Yeah, I know these are basic and old tenets of 30K / 40K (and really, of the world too) but sometimes I don't give them enough weight until I actually (re)relate them to something closer. Anyway I feel like I understand the Dark Angels hate of the Fallen, or the Thousand Sons hate of the Wolves, or the Word Bearers and Ultras, etc. a little better. It's like hate born out of the strongest camaraderie that's then reversed if that makes any sense... But then, in relating fiction back to real life, I can understand how what starts of as camaraderie can turn ugly and become hate and grudges. It's a complicated mess of emotions. Maybe I should get my wife to read the Horus Heresy. On a separate note though, all this also leads me to a 40K question - Does anyone in the Imperial Guard have an actual functioning family? I'm not talking about just marriage or children, but actual / meaningful interaction with a family. I'm guessing "no" while they are still in the Guard. Which given the usual faraway deployment, length of service required and short expected lifespan - would really mean that being drafted is essentially a no-real-family sentence, with maybe the exception of a few that actually survive and get to "retire". Which means there would be very few 40K families with strong lineage of Guard service? Or am I wrong? Anyway - sorry about the long rambling. Thanks for visiting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I assume nobles and the upper echelons may have some long family histories of service. From what I've read the rank and file guard seems very 1-way ticket off planet, you aren't coming back, while ship crews are lucky to even get "halt citizen" before some hit squad starts clubbing them in the head. Unless you're from Vostroya, then your proud family history of service stretches back 10,000 years! ""when" a man would consider duty to be "done"." Like most things I would say this varies greatly between individuals. Angron probably considered it done the moment the Emperor said hello while certain space marines would tell you that it doesn't end, even in death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Cadians have worked for thousands of years to replace the 'family' with the planet. In a way, all Cadians are part of a larger extended family. Go ahead. Make and incest joke. I'll wait...good? Ok. In a big way, this is an extension of what every military in the history of...ever, I guess, has tried to accomplish. People are simply a lot less likely to leave their father, mother, or brother to die, so getting to fight besides people that you consider to be 'family' is an important way to build unity within a military. Cadia has pulled this off wonderfully and complimented it with the normal Imperial application of religion and duty as well. Its a vast part of the reason that Cadia is such a military power house. Is it a 'normal' family experience? No. Life in the guard doesn't allow for that. It is, however, a good enough substitute if you happen to be born on a war world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 On a separate note though, all this also leads me to a 40K question - Does anyone in the Imperial Guard have an actual functioning family? I'm not talking about just marriage or children, but actual / meaningful interaction with a family. I'm guessing "no" while they are still in the Guard. Which given the usual faraway deployment, length of service required and short expected lifespan - would really mean that being drafted is essentially a no-real-family sentence, with maybe the exception of a few that actually survive and get to "retire". Which means there would be very few 40K families with strong lineage of Guard service? Or am I wrong?I think this has more to do with the focus of the novels and rulebooks than with the actual situation. A guardsman on R&R or with his family is simply beyond the scope of what BL authors are supposed to write about. If marriages and children exist, there must be some interactions between the members of the family, the authors just don't write about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 On a separate note though, all this also leads me to a 40K question - Does anyone in the Imperial Guard have an actual functioning family? I'm not talking about just marriage or children, but actual / meaningful interaction with a family. I'm guessing "no" while they are still in the Guard. Which given the usual faraway deployment, length of service required and short expected lifespan - would really mean that being drafted is essentially a no-real-family sentence, with maybe the exception of a few that actually survive and get to "retire". Which means there would be very few 40K families with strong lineage of Guard service? Or am I wrong?I think this has more to do with the focus of the novels and rulebooks than with the actual situation. A guardsman on R&R or with his family is simply beyond the scope of what BL authors are supposed to write about. If marriages and children exist, there must be some interactions between the members of the family, the authors just don't write about it. As grim dark as 40k is, you have to allow for some.....At least some aspect of familial and/or social respite from the average human population. Be in some traditional r&r or something like "when you're over 45 you're done," there would be very little incentive to joining up, or if joining wasn't an option, then at least being gung-ho. But as Quixus has said, we don't go to BL to read Nicholas Sparks in the 41st millennium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The closest BL has come to showing this sort of thing is in the later Ghosts novels by Dan Abnett. He describes a futuristic version of the baggage trains the used to follow armies in the past, thousands strong, that are transported from battle zone to battle zone along with the regiment they have become attached to. This included wives and children as well as the usual camp followers. It is implied that they are on their own if things go pear shaped and that they run the risk of being stranded if there is insufficient transport available. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrack Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 On the topic of camaraderie, it' has been my own limited experience that this rapidly decreases the larger the organizational level. For example, your squad mates = brothers, best man at weddings, lifelong friends, etc.. Platoon is pretty close to that as is company, but at battalion level you start running into people you don't know, or only met once or twice, but you still have a lot of shared experiences with. This gets further diluted at regimental and than divisional level. Other units you may get along with, but you may have a rivalry with, friendly rivalry or maybe you can't stand the sight of their emblem due to slights/ disrespect. You still will go to bat for them against the enemy, but your care and concern for them is way lower than that of your own men. When you get out to the broad coalition level of some conflicts, you are outright suspicious of some of your coalition partners. Now with the Great crusade, it's organization so vast that it is hard to comprehend. The gene bond may add to camaraderie, as would the super soldier training, but the gene differences outside of your legion might decrease it. There certainly were rivalries among the legions. On families in the guard, I could see regiments sent to garrison workday forming up families with the locals only to be redeployed to another war zone, never to return, a few years later, forced to abandon their families again. Just part of the quality of life for the guardsmen Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 On a separate note though, all this also leads me to a 40K question - Does anyone in the Imperial Guard have an actual functioning family? I'm not talking about just marriage or children, but actual / meaningful interaction with a family. I'm guessing "no" while they are still in the Guard. According to the 2nd Edition Codex Imperial Guard (p. 8), regiments that have served for more than ten years are removed from "protracted war zones" (i.e. fighting in the defense of Imperial worlds against a current threat) and are instead used for a campaign of conquest, as they constitute both the most experienced and most honoured of the Imperial regiments. If successful, they are rewarded with the right to settle on the newly conquered world. So there actually is a proper end to the service in the Imperial Guard, with the prospect of peaceful life after the service has ended. But of course not many will make it that far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderPirate Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'm sure I've read another BL novel where one of the characters was a former guardsman... maybe Titanicus? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It will depend somewhat on the regimental procedures of course, Vostroyans already mentioned as a good example. Generally though given the nature of the galaxy and the Imperial Guard's role in it your average Guardsman probably won't expect to be returning home. Surviving or not, is it practical when they've travelled countless light years away and seen different worlds? Maybe they just settle elsewhere with their newly forged family, or begin the journey home to their blood kin? It depends on the individual as much as their culture too but again as mentioned in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium you tend not to hear about Guardsman Bob going home after his tour is up to live out a happy and uneventful life growing space potatoes with his wife and kids Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303001-random-ruminations-about-camaraderie-family-wall-of-text/#findComment-3940440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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